Amaz0ns Forum

Johanna needs her own thread, I think.  Here's a small animated gif I made from a snippet from a YouTube clip:

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/elee0228/Johanna_Dejager_Animated_Bicep_by_e.gif)
Johanna Dejager Animated Bicep (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/91380245/) by *elee0228 (http://elee0228.deviantart.com/) on deviant (http://www.deviantart.com/)ART (http://www.deviantart.com/)

Nice animation!  I'm a big Johanna fan. 8) ;)

Nice gif. Monumental arms! I think I posted the YouTube clip that's taken from. JdsTheBest is my ID :)

That clips was shot just before the 2006 World Champs where she won the Silver. She looks great offseason too: Check out the bi's in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS4tY3I61lI

I'm not sure if she's competing this year or not. Maybe the North Americans. I hope so.

Yup, you posted the original. I had a link to it in the deviation description, but here it is for those here at amaz0ns:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=m1Bs6Sz9zCs

Great work posting all those vids by the way, jds.  I've seen other Dejager vids get pulled from youtube for some reason, but yours have remained thankfully.

Is it really a question as to why they get pulled?  The reason would be that she has a pay site and charges for her clips.

Johanna's an athlete in the purest sense of the word. Her dedication to her sport is remarquable and worthy of respect. And it shows... just look at that arm, that peak! :o In my book she's neck to neck with Mindi O'Brien for Greatest Female Biceps.

Lindsay Mullinazzi has some incredible biceps as well, hers are actually my favorite of them all.

Mindi and Lindsay are great - but you can't beat Jo's biceps for size and shape:

(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2928/johanna4002vf4.jpg)

(http://tour.ftvideo.com/content/genex/contests/2007/canadians/514242.jpg)

(http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7906/johanna7304tb4.jpg)

(http://tour.ftvideo.com/content/genex/contests/2007/canadians/514302.jpg)

Of course, she acheives this whilst being steroid-free. 8)

I think she might be competing this weekend at the North Americans - at least she's on the competitors list over at Sioux Country. Haven't seen any new vids of her for a few months so I'm not sure how she's looking or which weight class she'll be in - but if last year was anything to go by, she should be a serious contender for the pro-card.

Good luck Jo !!

Go Jo! 8)

She came 3rd in the middleweights. Well done Jo!

Pics:http://www.musculardevelopment.com/browse/index.php?mode=contest&eventcode=1283 (http://www.musculardevelopment.com/browse/index.php?mode=contest&eventcode=1283)

(http://www.musculardevelopment.com/photos/transferred/DSC_5578_INLKSUUDYE.JPG)

(http://www.musculardevelopment.com/photos/transferred/DSC_7916_VLCYOYQHMX.JPG)

Once again the judges decision is a mystery to me. J's biceps are twice the size of the 1st and 2nd place girls put together. Her abs, legs, conditioning and shape are the best too. They had it right when they made her competitor number '1'

I was about to say much the same thing.  Baffling. ??? ::)

3RD?


 ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Yes, she definitely should have placed higher.  Ah, just noticed I broke a link in the first post, so I'm reposting that plus a new gif animation I cobbled together.

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/elee0228/gif-anim/Johanna_Dejager_Animated_Bicep_by_e.gif)
Johanna Dejager Animated Bicep (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/91380245/) by *elee0228 (http://elee0228.deviantart.com/) on deviant (http://www.deviantart.com/)ART (http://www.deviantart.com/)

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/elee0228/gif-anim/Johanna_Dejager_Tricep_by_elee02-1.gif)
Johanna Dejager Tricep (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/95258593/) by *elee0228 (http://elee0228.deviantart.com/) on deviant (http://www.deviantart.com/)ART (http://www.deviantart.com/)

Nice tricep animation. That vid was shot in 2003. Hard to believe she's been looking so good for so long.

I think she might be competing at the Canadians in Montreal this weekend - not sure - so don't count on it. She placed 3rd in the MW and masters last year. Here's hoping she can win this year.

I think it's a conspiracy against the athlete that proves that it's possible without steroids.  It has to be.  How else did they place her third when her physique was clearly better than at least one of the others?

I don't think it's a conspiracy - more a case of who knows who. The judges can also be swayed by national and local allegiances and the level of support in the audience for a particular girl.

Then they shouldn't be judges.  What's the point if the rankings are going to be swayed by the phases of the moon and where the contest is taking place?! ::) ;D

She definitely looks the best of the three.

I'm no judge, but I think I do understand why Johanna placed behind Cheryl Faust: Faust seems better proportioned to me, albeit in some ineffable way I can't describe.  (Except maybe to say that Johanna's legs are a bit small compared to her upper body.)  I actually think I disagree with my own instinct and would myself have put Johanna first, but it's a close call.  On the other hand, though Kim Ferrell looks great, placing her above Johanna makes no sense to me at all.

Just another two cents to add to the pot.

Jd is not natural, she takes steriods. Claiming to be "natural" is laughable. Now, i am not anti-steriods; in fact I say juice up! It looks amazing, but lets be serious here.  It is impossible for a woman of JD's muscle mass and detial to be attained without the aid of roids, hgh, insulin or a combo of all three.

Let me say this straight out: No althete in competitive BB'ing, figure, or fitness is natural. There are "natural" BB'ing contests for a reason...

What evidence do you have that she's not natural asides from her muscle mass?  She's still a tiny package, and from what I've seen small girls can sometimes pack a huge amount of mass.

So what proof do you have that Johanna is using steroids when her whole motto is to build naturally?  You need to back it up.

It's a biological imposibiliy, women produces about 1/13th the amount of testosterone that males produce.  A women with amazing genetics could work out for her entire life with a perfect diet and still not be able to compete at a pro/ national lvl. BB contest.  They simply cannot naturally produce enough test. to grow muscles of any signifigant size; let alone JD's development.

By no means do I mean to belittle anyone here, but the fact that we are even having this conversation really shows that some of you don't know much (or are in denial) about the "dark side" of bodybuilding.

As I said in my previous post, steroids arn't evil, but in the world of competitive BB'ing there not an advantage, there simply a given.

*Again, they have acctual natural bodybuilding contests for a reason; that reason is that men and women who don't take steriods cant compete with those who do (on the national or pro stage). Why else do you think they would have them?!?!?

If you dont believe me, and I am sure many of you don't, I challenge any of you to take a picture of JD to bodybuilding.com, musculardevelopment .com, ironmagazine.com, or any other reptuable body building site and ask the resident "guru" over there if he/she thinks if JD is natural (meaning takeing zero performance ehancing drugs like roids, hgh, or insulin).

Biologically impossible?  You know what I used to think was biologically impossible?  A 14 year old girl being able to lift over 400 lbs.  A 7 year old kid having a ripped six pack of abs.

Yet each of those I just listed are real and have happened in a natural way.

I am no stranger to steroids being used in body building, there are tons of popular FBB's who I think have used steroids.  I'm not going to name names of the beloved ones because I have no evidence of it.  But I can name the most obvious ones like, Maria Calo and Nicole Bass.  Renne Tonney also springs to mind.

Johanna however, has no tell tale signs of steroid side effects such as manly voice, square jaw, and acne.  I'm sure she uses supplements and the like, but she's pretty much as big as Pauline Nordin and I'm pretty sure Pauline isn't a steroid abuser either.

Also, photos tends to make bodybuilders look bigger.  A good example of this was Siene Silva from American Gladiators.  In the photos by herself, she looked enormous, huge even.  Yet when you put her on a side by side comparison to Hulk Hogan it became quite obvious that she was as tiny as a fairy.

So unless you've met Johanna in person or have evidence that she's abused steroids, even though she shows none of the side effects, I don't think your targeting of JD is valid.

If you said Maria Calo or someone else, then you might be on to something, but Johanna?  I don't think so.

Good points Collector.


This photo illustrates your point quite well:

(http://www.musculardevelopment.com/photos/transferred/DSC_6245_VHJFYUTWFU.JPG)

These girls are small but perfectly formed. Not so hard to believe this could be achieved by natural training and nutrition. Throw in J's sweet feminine voice, perfect skin, good hair and pretty face - and I'm a believer!

I'm not in any form of denial about steroid use.  If you'd like, I'll message you with the names of FBBers who I consider to have gone too far in their use.  I know the signs, and I can assure you that people her like AlexG will tell you that I sometimes obsess about my favourites showing those signs.  Like The_Collector, I see no evidence whatsoever that Jo is using.  Now, she may be lying.  Then again, so might I.  For all anyone here knows, I might be a female ballerina, or a Space Shuttle crew member, or a brain surgeon.  The fact is, though, that I'm neither of those, and that any speculation that I might be is just that; speculation with no supporting evidence.  Just the same as you speculating about Johanna.   

I'm offended. Weather or not your are trying to call the members of this board ignorant thats how it's coming off.  >:(

And from what your saying there can not be any truely exceptional female who possesses physiology such as Jennifer Abrams, Rhonda Dethlefs, and Carman Unger who all pride themselves on being drug free are all lying. Not everyone's chemical makeup is the same so I can beleive that there are some women in the sport who can build a lovely physique without drugs. I however am in no way ignorent to the fact that these women are at a very heavy(and I do stress the words very heavy) disadvantage to the girls that juice.

If your going to make statements such as the ones you need to back it up with sonething more than a challenge that is based off other people's opinions and be more carefull in your criticism of other peoples level of knowledge on the matter before they even state them. It's not a big secret that the people that frequent boards like these are obsessed with the primary subject of the board and will study it with great passion. So to say that "some of you don't know much (or are in denial) about the "dark side" of bodybuilding" is a lot like telling a mechanic that he doesn't know much about cars.  >:(

Precisely.  Back-up your accusation, greyfox. >:(

Well I knew that comment will spark some fireworks here =), so I'll try and respond to each of you the best I can.


For the first part of your comment (the strength of a 14 y.o girl), I am speaking in terms of muscle size; I am not qualified to answer anything on feats of strength.

(6 pack abs of 7 year old girl), I assume your refering to gymnasts; with this group of incredibly gifted youngsters they are doing massive amounts of cardio based activity, ab work (strengthen core), and have impeccable diets. In combonation with relativly low body fats to begin with, geting a 6 pac of abs is very attainable considering how much work they put on. Again, no muscle size here. (and yes, I am well aware that gymnasts have defined, well built, muscular frames but they are not on a pro or national Fbb level)

(steroid signs of JD), steroid "tells" like acne or jaw distortions as you refered to are purley on a case to case basis. Another words a person can juice there entire life and not experience a single sign of steroid abuse because of genetic disposition to the drug or in some cases becuase of prevention substances used to fight the side effects (yes, I am aware that some side effects are not "reversable" or "fightable/ hideable"). For example, take someone like Kevin Leverone, this man at one time was a massive freak of muscle, and from all acounts (pics, videos, and personal stories from metting the man) I nor anyone that I have ever encountered has ever saw any tell tale signs of steroid use besides his immense frame.

(photo deception), yes it is very true that size is simply an illusion created on stage for the purposes of faceing fellow competitors. Agreed

(met Jd/ evidence), No I have never met JD, a local gym rat like me is not worthy of meeting a godis like her. As i explained earlier, just because she has no visible side effects, does not mean that she dosent take roids, hgh, or insulin; it merly means that she responds amazing well to the drugs. And I can assure you that I am in no way "targeting" JD because i have nothing but great respect for each and every Fbb'er. Even if say, a girl in my local gym, took roids, hgh, and insulin; that girl will proboblly never be able to compete on the nation stage because of genetic limitations, balance issues, or lack of reponse to the substacnes (to compete at THAT level).

Part 2:

Next quote:


I never said that anyone was specifically (key word) was in denial, i just said that by even talking about naturals being on the nation stage shows (that in my opinion) that was the case for some who jumps to there defense. In your case, obviosuly your not. But my freind, if you are not in denial, I would respectfully call you naive. The belief that any athlete on the national scene, competing in bb'ing show naturally is simply impossible from a biological/ medical standpoint. As I said in a previous post, women simply cannot produce the sheer amount of testosterone that is needed to grow muscles the size (and maintain that size with such an incredibly low bf.) of national level competitors with out steroids. Roids are basically synthesised test., and when injected it produces excellerated muscle growth when training for it. And yes, I am speculating, but the evidence (which to me is her body) IMHO is simply incontrevertable.

Part 3:

Next quote:


If you are indeed offended all I can do is offer you my apologies, but I can assure you (as i think you know) that was not my intention. Yes, I think that everyone who competes nationally and pro level juice at least; so you know where I stand when those people you mentioned claim to be natural. And I never said that you specifically where ignorant to steroid useage; obviosuly your not.

I offered the challenge because I knew that no matter what I said, there would be those who did not believe me; it was just another way of verifying my argument. And by the way, male Pro's on those sites are considered the paramount of body building opinions, not saying that they are right about everything in BB'ing, but I can say with full faith that those select few can tell if a person is taking roids just by looking at a photo. Yes I know that sounds ridiculous to many of you, but IMO it is true espcially for Fbb's. So yes I am supremly confident in thier knowledge (those select few, perhaps I should have specified that more in my post-granted.) Well in my experience on these boards, I think many have blind faith in that they refuse to believe that any fbb takes roids, and for some reason think that steroids are cheating in BB'ing---there not. They are a given. So perhaps my experience was not the same as yours, but thats the consitent impression I get from the majority (not the everyone of course).

Part 4,

Last qoute:

I did that in my 2nd post, whether or not it was sufficient, is debatable.

Look, I love fbb's, I love FMG, I have been an active, contributng member of the fbb/fmg community both off and online (though, admittidly not at this site so much but certaintly others under manyyyy alias's). I simply do no believe that any male or female competing at or above JD's level is natural. I believe this because of both conventional, proven BB wisdom and more importantly because of biological facts.

One final though: I know some of you must workout here, some of you must work out to "get huge" or "ripped". Many of you are guys, so just for a moment, for those of you who do work out for muscle growth, think about yourself, a male remember, who has putting in workout after workout, year after year to the gym. Now lets focus on those of you who have put in 5 natural, consistent, well deit'ed years. How do you look? I'd be willing to bet that most of you dont look as good (muscular development wise and certaintly muscle size wise in proportion to height AND body fat) as even a national level fbb (on, mid, or offseason). Think back on those 5 hard years of sweat from hours of pumping iron, and swallowing those terrible protein shakes after every workout. Did u gain 25lbs of water, carbs, fat, and muscle? Proboblly, but maybe not, I dont know any of you. Now imagine an average girl with literally 1/13th of your muscle building power doing what you did over 5 years... 

Even if JD has amazing genetics (which clearly she does), her body simply cannot produce the levels of testosterone needed to get muscles big enough to compete on that stage.

Before you immidiatly flame me, at least look in medical journals or talk to an "expert" about what I am saying (although I think you should be research first because it will be more powerful to you).

Again, I'm not a bad guy, I have a problem with none of you, and none of this is intended to insult any of you on any level. I love the female muscle community but I sincerly believe that every (male of female) fitness, figure, or BB'er on the nationl/ pro stage juices, takes hgh, insulin, or a combo of all 3.

All right, well you had a valid response to each of us, at least I think for myself.

My only request is that, regardless of if any FBB's use roids or not, is a topic best left untouched.  To compete it isn't uncommon for women to take "3rd party" products.  I only ask that it not be talked about, if they use the roids, they use them.  But for those of us who admire these women, just giving the thought of someone so attractive using steroids could tarnish the illusion.

Let's remember, most of us may never meet these women in person, therefore their illusion of beauty remains impeccable.  To accuse someone of roiding without any physical facts, like drug tests and what not means that there isn't enough sufficient evidence.  If there is not sufficient evidence, why bring it up in the first place?

So once my again, my request is that unless there's been drug testing done or some kind of big reveal, it's better that we don't discuss the roids, just for the sake of keeping blissful ignorance.

Apology accepted. Weather I agree with you or not I can appreciate that you are able to discuss your thoughts without name calling.  :) We don't like that here on this board and the moderators do an excellent job (WAY TO GO GUYS!!!) of keeping the peace. We are all adults and conduct ourselves as such even though we do have our more childish  :P moments from a time to time.

It's okay if we have people on the board with different vews and opinions so that we can discuss our diffences of thought and weigh them. I'm still going to disagree with you (and its okay that you feel differently, I'm not trying to change your mind I'm just staiting my thoughts) that there isn't any women who have a wonderful gift geneticaly to build muscle because humanity is so vast and comes in so many shapes and sizes. I know its unlikely but there have been women over seven feet tall and there really isn't a drug you can take for that.  ;D So if a woman can be over seven feet tall why not have another who can build some muscle?

Those are my thoughts and I thank you for yours sir.

Yes, time to turn down the heat on this one.  Just a word from a biologist; it's inaccurate to say that, because an average woman has 1/13th the amount of circulating testosterone, that she has only 1/13th the muscle-building power.  There are many other biological factors at play.  I do get irritated, I'm afraid, when non-biologists make grand statements that are inaccurate, and that is one of the reasons I tend to react.  As a disabled person who can't lift much at all, I don't know the level required to get in shape like that from personal experience.  I do, however, know that Johanna is known to train harder than most, and was lifting heavy weight as a girl working on her parents' dairy farm (carrying calves in from fields has been mentioned somewhere) and this would tend to produce an adult physique with thicher bones and larger muscle attatchments.

Interesting comments guys. I'd like to come back on a couple of GreyFox's points:

On the idea of us guys comparing our own BBing efforts to FBBs like Johanna: I agree there's no way I can build muscle like Johanna naturally. But that doesn't mean others can't. eg. As a child in school I was just a bag of bones, straight up and down. But other guys had 'mini He-Man' type bodies from day one. Not thru any exercise - just genetics. So projecting your own experience onto others isn't always valid.

I've talked to Johanna about about her pre-show diet and it is extreme beyond any experience of mine. eg. Drinking practically nothing for the last 2 weeks before contest. And off-season she eats like a horse - masses of veggies too - with an obsessive attention to weights, measures and regularity. Again - way beyond my experience. Who knows what I'd look like if I had her will-power and committment. We'll never know cos I'm too lazy and fond of eating junk.


I fail to see why these guys should be considered the source of all wisdom. Many have been juicing since very early in their career's, so how are they qualified to say what a gifted natty like Jo can or can't achieve after 15 years of natural training?

Re the idea that some guys can take roids without any sides. True, but I find women's bodies tend to be more sensitive to the ravages of these drugs. Few women are able to avoid all side effects.

Finally, what's Jo's motivation for lying about her natural status when she's competing in non-tested competitions like the North Americans? It doesn't give her any advantage. Drugs are widely used and accepted by her competitors. What's her motivation? Is she just a compulsive liar? And why would she start a website called 'Naturally Built' in 2002 if she was quietly juicing all the while? Seems risky to me. She might start exhibiting side effects any day then look like a stupid fraud. Surely it would be better just to do what everyone else does and not mention drugs. Unless she really is natural.

As Johanna says in her AMG profile:

"I believe anyone can obtain their desired look naturally through planned nutrition and exercise."

Actually I don't believe just anyone can, but it's a commendable sentiment - and an inspiration for us all to try.

jdfan makes some good points.  She has too much to lose by advertising her natural status if she's not.

well guys, my only comment here on this matter is, and I really think that JD is natural, but it seem almost everybody here has omitted the fact that she has compited in drug-tested events. I mean, if there are shows where BBs are tested, and she compites, then, the most likely thing to asume if that she is natural. I don't know how much it would take, to "clean-up" you system from any performance enhancing drug, but, for ehat I heard and read, it's not like you dump the juice and you can contiinue working out jsut like that, your body feels the lack of those drugs, and you can't keep up your workouts.

just my 2 cents

Yes indeed. She's been competing in tested events every year for the last 12 years - in addition to the occasional untested competition. Now I know drug tests can be beaten (look at Marion Jones et al) so in itself that doesn't prove anything. But again, why would she stake her reputation on being natural then risk her reputation every year when she could easily just compete in untested events and/or just not mention drugs like everyone else. It doesn't add up.

Well I agree that it is indeed time to turn the heat down on this topic, as someone said above. It's ok that we can disagree on this issue. You know where I stand and why, and I know where those of you have posted stand- and thats fine.

*Just a couple of quick items.
on the "reputation" claims. I think it would be incredibly stupid for any BB'er to admit to taking steroids for obvious image and endorsement reasons. That being said, I dont know why JD would claim to be natural if shes not; i could offer theries but it would be pure speculation and I am not going to beat a now dead horse.

And to cbpell, I admit that I am not a qualified biologist by any means but if you are, even you must admit that test. production is the single greatest factor for muscle growth. My evidence on female test. was based on legitimate medical journals found threw a scholarly archive engine.

Also, there was someone who said that they fail to see how male bb's are an authority. I personally think they credible, but I did insist in early posts that acctual medical science evidence certaintly trump theirs.

And finally there was a comment about competeing in drug "tested" events. IFBB and NPC testing is frankly a joke, it is raveged with inconsistencies and hypocricy. There are hundreds of articles on this topic on the web.

Ladies and Gentlemen, lets get back to discussing JD's lucious biceps and not if they are natural.

I never said that testosterone levels were unimportant, just that they weren't the only factor.  I would agree that it's very rare for a woman to build big muscles without some help; my argument was with your assertion thatthis somehow proved Johanna to be a liar.  I would also agree with you about the drug-testing at some events; however, with the number of tested events she's done, she would have been very lucky to get through clean each time had she been juicing.

to clarify something. If one looks at the contest that Jd was participated that are Drug tested, most of them aren't IFBB or NPC sanctioned they are from other more serious federations.

This aside, Let's just get back to our usual discusions.

YEAH the JD is SO HOT discusions. LOL  ;D

A pic from the prejudging this morning at the Canadian Championships in Montreal:

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/skittles_579/DSC09580-MW.jpg)

From this pic I think J should take the middleweight class easily and be in with a good shot at the overall and Pro card. The finals are happening right now so stay tuned...

Yes!! Just heard Johanna won the middleweight class and was awarded the 2nd Pro card (same as Cindy last year). Well done Jo!!

(http://www.twixpix.com/contests/CA08/pics/twx_CA08-Intro_01.jpg)

http://www.twixpix.com/contests/CA08/CA08-Intro.html (http://www.twixpix.com/contests/CA08/CA08-Intro.html)

So Johanna's a Pro at long, long last? (http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/musik/f015.gif)  (http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/musik/f025.gif)  (http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/musik/h020.gif)

Athena also a Pro?  Good job, too. 8) ;)

I agree with everything you said (espcially the bolded statment) except for the last sentence.

Also, CBBF and Ontario National events, while they do have a better rep than the IFBB and NPC, are still mired with similar problems.

Ok, I'am done on this topic. It's obvious we can't disprove eachother anyway.

BTW, finally a pro card? Congradulations. Long time comming

It always suprises me how people like greyfox here have no problem with women permanently damaging their health and appearance thru steroid abuse. But should a woman succeed the old fashioned way - naturally, thru hard work and perseverance over a 13 year competitive career - they get called a cheat and a liar and have their achievements rubbished.

I agree it's kinda pointless debating it further though. The only thing we can conclusively prove is that Greyfox is a libelous bigot.

Anyway - congratulations to Johanna on her Pro card and the vindication of her decision to stay natural.

(http://www.twixpix.com/contests/CA08/pics/twx_CA08-Intro_01.jpg)

I must say, she deserved it. XD

Acctually you can't conclude that I am a "libelous bigot" because none of you can prove me wrong for the simple fact that you dont KNOW that JD hasent taken roids; nor can you provide any explanation/defense to the medical facts i cited earlier (other than JD's word or the belief that there are exceptional cases in medical science).

In addition, those women who take those drugs do so on their on behalf and should be mature and responsible enough not do to so when endangering their health; I never once pushed for women to take roids, I only addmited that I like the look that they produce (like many of you here, im sure).

To conclude, I would like to note that I not once gave any snyde remarks or took part in childish name calling; exactly like what has been done to me.

Jdfan You may disagree with me, maybe you dont like me, but at least I can say that I debated a touchy subject without stooping to your level. If I am wrong about JD that I will glady take back my opinion, but I doubt that I am.

Gawd I thought that this was finished.

Look, here's what I see. no one has given any "proof" of anything one way or the other. the only thing that has been proven is that we all have different opinions. I think Joann is natural and greyfox doesn't and thats okay, he is entittled to this belief just as much as I am to mine. This thread isn't supose to be a steroid discution, its a thread dedicated to Joann and her acheivements.

No one should have to have the last word and name calling is not cool we know where people stand. No amount of droning is going to change someones mind in this matter. Now can we please get back to the subject at hand which is how amazing JD is.

Dude, you came into a pro Johanna thread and repeatedly stated in an arrogant and complacent manner that Johanna takes steroids - side-stepping or rubbishing the substantial evidence and arguments others posted in her defence.

As regards name calling - you are effectively calling Johanna a liar (since she claims to be natural) and a cheat (since she has won many natural BBing contests). These are serious allegations without a shread of proof - just your complacent statement that it's 'impossible' for Jo to be natural based on what the pro-steroid BB establishment say.

The thread had moved on to Johanna's Pro card victory - but you choose to restart the argument by again rubbishing the CBBF doping tests and by refusing to conceed that passing tests repeatedly over a 10 year period makes it any more likely she really is natural.

Libelous = maliciously defamatory. I think that's an accurate description of your allegations.

Bigot = a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

OK - maybe 'utterly intolerant' is too strong. But you're certainly smug, complacent and unwilling to conceed that you might not be right all the time.

OK - I'm ready to move on to discussing how great Johanna looks now.

I disagree, JD made a claim and I disagreed and cited why. And I did no side-stepping as my main argument has stayed in tact, I only adressed other issues as others brought them up. I made the comment about the other comps because it was brought up by someone else, I had to make a rebuttle; which I think is perfectly sane given the nature of "testing" in those contests.
 
And for the final time i cited medical facts that your very own resident biologist acknowledged as being at least lucid.

I was not malicous, Do you want to know what I could have done, what showing malic really is? I could have made a thread in the IFBB Pro Section at BB.com and let 30-50 or so people rip into JD post after post, while laughing at all those who support her natural claims here. BUT I didnt do that, did i?  I choose to debate this internally because it was the right thing to do

and I dont understand how I am smug; I said before that IF I am wrong, I would happily take back my statements.

But, the one thing that I do agree with you on is that I am ready to move on.

The End, agree to disagree, and btw 00tree- it was finished untill jd resorted to unsubstainiated defamation, and thank you for your unbias comments.

IMHO your opening statement was malicious defamation:
Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion - but you present this like a statement of fact when actually, your 'evidence' is no more than the second hand opinions from steroid users who have a vested interest in smearing natural athletes.

The facts are: Hard exercise and good nutrition build muscle. Certain drugs help build muscle but often produce unwanted side effects. Johanna has no side effects and has tested negative for banned substances many times over a 10 year period. In addition Johanna has staked her reputation on being natural and has no reason to lie since drugs are widely accepted in the sport.

We agreed testing is not perfect - but a number of athletes *have* tested positive at Johanna's competitions over the years. Therefore by submitting herself to those tests for over 10 years, there is at least *some* likelyhood that Jo actually is natural.

Another piece of evidence I would add: slow rate of change. Jo's build hasn't changed dramatically since she first appeared on the scene. She just slowly improves each year. Again, this is consistent with natural training. Unlike some girls who add a massive amount of muscle in a few short years.


By your own admission there is nothing J can do to prove she is natural - so clearly you will never take back your statements.


Fortunately you side stepped the motive question to save us from more baseless accusations and character slurs. Thanks for that.

To justify your allegations you'd need to produce either:

a) a visible side effect
b) a positive test result.

You have neither which makes your allegations baseless malicious defamation. Please lets not hear any more of your BS in this thread.

I promised myself I wouldn't reply to this until we'd dropped this stuff, but I just wanted to clarify my position.  Whilst I am a trained biologist, I am not an expert on steroids and their effects.  My opinion (based on academic learning) is as follows:

Testing for steroid abuse is fraught with difficulties.  Biology, as the study of living things, has to encompass a range or spectrum.  By this I mean that one person may have a certain level of circulating testosterone that is due solely to biology, whereas a different person with the same levels may only be able to attain that level by taking artificial testosterone-mimicking substances.  This does, indeed make it difficult for Jo or anyone else to prove their innocence, but, by the same token, it makes it unwise to accuse someone of steroid abuse without strong evidence.  In science, opinion without evidence is worthless.

Additionally, science rarely provides 100% certainty.  As a biologist, I am trained to use statistical tests to determine the probability that the result I observe is due to some effect, not pure random chance.  We work on a 95% confidence interval,which is the scientist's equivalent of "beyond reasonable doubt" in legal matters.

There is no doubt that few women could attain Jo's physique naturally.  However, there are always pieces of data, or, in this case, a person, who lies outside the normal range.  We call such data "outliers". 

(cont'd in next post) 

(cont'd from previous post)

The dificulty arises when we we have to determine whether a particular piece of data is at the extreme end of the range, or is a chance event, an outlier, which we can safely discard.  To translate: even with the abilty to perform complex statistical calculations on Jo, it would be near-impossible to determine whether her physique is down to her being unusually genetically-able to build muscle naturally, or whether she represents an outlier, in other words, she is taking steroids.   

As we cannot do this, our best effort is to make a considered judgement based on the evidence we have.  In doing so, I consider it highly likely that she is natural.  My reasons for this are as follows:

1.  Her progress has been slow and steady, rather than exhibiting dramatic gains followed by stagnation as is often seen with steroid use.

2.  The risk to her reputation if found-out is high, given her anti-drugs stance.

3.  She has contested many shows in which drug-testing has been used.  Despite the weakness of such tests, simple statistics tell us that, whilst the odds of her passing one test whilst on steroids is fairly high, the odds of her passing many tests without being found-out diminishes rapidly.

4.  She displays none of the signs of steroid use, and her appearance has changed over the years only to the extent that I would expect to be due to ageing.  She has a smooth voice, clear skin, shows little or no sign of "roid jaw", nose changes, receding hairline or acne.

Look, this is getting out of hand. And I do apologize for that.

I'll sum up this entire argument with a fair and balanced perspective.

My argument, JD, as a woman, cannot produce the levels of testostrone needed to attain her muscular development. Medical Science supports this, period end of story of my arguement

Overall defense (that to me made the most sense):

1) Hold that there are very exceptional circumstances in medical science, and JD is one of these cases.--- every point that cpbell made above (which i think is the best sum of your arguement) comes down to this

I am willing to acknowledge the defense as barley plausible if you will in turn accept that that postition is indeed highly highly unlikly.

I have adressed everypoint that cp made directly (in previous posts) above except for number 1; slow and steady progress does not mean no roid use, it IMO means she didn't take incredibly intensive cycles or had a very hard time responding to the drugs (perfect exmaple= dave palumbo). If she was natural there would be a limit due to her low test levels; its just like saying your local gym rat with insane genetics can attain a Mr.O physque without the drugs, it wll just take a lot longer...

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.  I agree that rapid improvements are not always seen in steroid use, just that they are often present because athletes use excessive cycles, and that this seems to me to be another factor in why I believe she is clean.  I accept that it is unlikely that any one FBBer will be able to grow such musculature naturally, however I argue that many women build muscles around the world and so it's quite likely that one finds that she is able to do so.

Check out Johanna's update on Andy's: http://www.amg-lite.com/johanna_dejager/ (http://www.amg-lite.com/johanna_dejager/)

Best biceps shot ever:

(http://www.amgprofiles.com/Johanna/Pics/Johanna7004.jpg)

If I didn't know better, I'd almost say they must be morphed!  Pound-for-pound, Johanna must be the Bicep Queen!

Very impressive.