Amaz0ns Forum

Was posted on the MSNBC page, but it's gone now.

However, the IMDb: TV Listings still has it posted for Sunday, August 10, 2008 @ 10 PM EST USA - and once again Monday, August 11, 2008 @ 1 AM EST USA

(Be certain to double-check your local listings)

Source: http://posters.imdb.com/tvgrid/2008-08-11/MSNBC/?start_date=2008-08-10&channel=MSNBC&x=16&y=9

That title worries me.

http://genexmagazine.blogspot.com/2008/08/hooked-muscle-women-airs-this-sunday.html

Seems that it may have been aired before....

here's a clip with Kristy Hawkins....


http://video.msn.com/dw.aspx?mkt=en-us&from=truveo&vid=4630bc0e-1259-4e6f-994d-c74b1acf8630

Thanks. That's an awesome clip. It makes me want to look at the whole show.

Very interesting clip. I wouldn't mind watching the whole show ('cept I don't have regular T.V.). Kristy looks and sounds great and I certainly admire her dedication. As far as "muscle dysmorphia" (aka biggerexia) is concerned, I figure it's all on an individual basis. And I certainly agree with the announcer as it all being "in the eye of the beholder" as to the attractiveness aspect.

If it has, I can't say as I recall hearing 'bout before.  Here's some more info on it -

Source: http://www.bodybuildingweekly.com/hardbodies_news/media_watch/msnbc_gets_into_the_minds_of_female_bodybuilders.html

FYI - It's not the first time MSNBC has run a documentary w/ FBBrs - back in 2000 they had one called "Body of Work" - which featured Colette Nelson and a few others.

Strange indeed to see her first as a chubby kid, then an underweight, pale and weedy teenager. :o  Great that they spoke with her on this programme because their viewers will realise two things that are contrary to popular opinion:

1.  Not all FBBers have Barry White voices

and

2.  Not all BBers are stupid - some, like Kristy, are highly articulate, cerebral people.

Considering most of the treatment that bodybuilders get in documentaries, that clip was less negative. They did focus on Kristy, who has been extraordinarily successful in balancing her studies with her lifestyle.

On the other hand, they had to pull out the Harvard professor who's made a livelihood telling them they're crazy. Oh, it's a nice way of saying it, but notice that they included his definition of abnormal next to Kristy, although she did not meet any of the criteria. (Is her life impaired? Is she in poor physical shape? I think not)

I'd really like to see a psychiatric evaluation that doesn't assume that they're nuts. Why do other athletes get a pass, and have puff pieces (see the Olympics coverage) about how brave and dedicated they are, the sacrifices they make.

That line Kristy gave the old lady in her gym is priceless though, and she has the grace to give a little blush after saying it.

If anyone can make a good representation of the sport, it's definitely Kristy Hawkins.  She's got a sweet voice and is extremely intelligent, while also being very cute and beautiful.  Here's to hoping it gets a good reception.

That short clip I looked at didn't take the one shot they could have, and press her on the use of roids. In one answer (or evasion) her creditability could be clearly established. Every question she answerers from that point forward would be weighed aginst the roid question. Since they didn't take the shot, I'm guessing they were playing softball with her.

I'd call eating 5-6 times a day and working-out to the point of exhaustion and pain life impairing by the normal measures of society.

I don't think she looked chubby at all in her picture as a kid. she looked normal to me

Perhaps not until her later years did she have a more rounded look in her face. ....but even still she looked perfectly fine to me.


People's and the media's definition of chubby can vary I know. But seriously, look at her picture as a kid again. Her chin is quite pronounced....if she were chubby her chin would not be that pronounced.

Chubby is the kid from Bad Santa

Perhaps a US definition of chubby is different from a UK definition?  Or maybe it IS just personal opinion?

Now that the program has aired, any comments, a critique perhaps, from someone(s) who has actually watched the full documentary?  8)

No comments on the actual program since I don't have cable and couldn't watch it, but I do have a funny little quip from my wife.  While watching the Olympics we saw a commercial for that documentary and she looked at me and said (with a smile on her face) "Too bad we don't have cable, you might get pretty turned on by that, huh."  God, I love that woman!

They covered Kristy Hawkins, Colette Nelson, and I forgot the third woman's name. The third was a natural fbb, but there were minor cameo's of others. Xin Li Cao, Dayana Cadeau, Brenda Raganot, and some others.

The documentary itself wasnt too bad. I expected something much much more cruel and demeaning. But it was for the most part positive. :)

I caught it. Basically profiles the three bodybuilders previously named (Collete, Kristy, and a natural amateur), intercut with psycho babble nonsense from really old white haired Harvard professor. Honestly didnt pay much attention to his inane assessments... something about body dysmorphia blah blah blah. Did not paint a pretty picture of female bodybuilding from a psychiatric POV.

The bodybuilders profiled however, provided a nice counter balance. No one portrayed as outright nutty, although the natural competitor made some small comments about the 'lifestyle' quirks (she mentions bringing 100+ pieces of chicken to a friend's wedding in Texas). Collete's segment made heavy mention of her diabetic condition, but was fair and she came across as a sweet open personality. Kristy was portrayed in much the same light, and the segment did mention her past eating disorder.

All in all, its pretty much what we expected. A segment on the 'strange' sport of female bodybuilding, psycho analysis, steroids, competitions, and a handful of lovelies to provide counter balance. I wouldnt call the tone negative, but it was certainly critical at times. Kristy especially looked stunning. Wowza. I tivo'd it, and will watch it again later. You are all invited to join me.  ;)

In the clip I saw, Kristy bascically admitted that her eating disorder was no longer anorexia because it had become the need to control her food intake for BBing.  In that situation, BBing has helped her enormously, but it hasn't cured her food problems.  Body dysmorphia has, if I remember correctly, been diagonosed amongst male and female BBers, so to infer that it's an FBBing thing is disingenuous. 

And of course Kristy looked stunning.  She always does. 8) ;)

It was OK.  Not to bad not to good.  I think it the mindset of the people at MSNBC.  They don't want women to be strong to have muscles.  Than they can't claim women are the weaker sex and they can't run all thsoe stories about women being a victim.  Your only victim, if you allow yoruself to be  a victim.  They got to fill 24 hours a day with stories.

Isn't that the case with all news outlets?  I think you've helped me define my chief complaint about this item:  even when presented with a powerful young woman like Kristy, they have to present her as a victim. 

Did they do the same thing with Colette?

did anyone happen to record it? I don't have MSNBC, and would love to see it, any way you could upload it to a sharing site? Would be greatly appreciated within our community, I'm not the only one looking for it:)

Sariel

I too am looking for it. Looks pretty interesting.

I recorded it onto my PC...just have no clue how to break it up and post it lol...

Well, don’t feel too bad that you were unable to see it, I recorded it and finally, got time to watch it.

Jeese Louise, I’ve seen far better programs on this subject then this one.   Outside of the moments w/ Kristy, Colette or the natural gal prepping for their contests (w/o outside voice over commentary by the female narrator for the piece), the rest was a pile of psychological analysis garbage that I could have easily done without.  Kinda reminded me of the short-short segment on FBBing that National Geographic channel ran as a part of its Taboo series (and if I’m not mistaken, the same psychologist from the MSNBC one was involved with that one, too.)   I would have far and away prefer to hear more from Steve Wennerstrom or even Bill Dobbins, then what they offered as so-called insight into the niche-lifestyle environment of FBBing.

If they really wanted to give the audience a thumbnail view of what it's like to be a FBBr, they could have used a documental lifestyle-training format - i.e. how TLC/Discovery covered Joanna Thomas.

I suppose the only thing you could say in their defence is that the title does suggest an analysis rather than straight documentary.

Well, if you want a gem of wisdom, Steve had the best one when after the natural gal lost out w/o placing at all.  Paraphrasing him, he suggested that by going to the mall and just watching the people going by puts things in perspective.  Yes, you might not have placed in the upper echelons of the contest, but in comparison to 99.9 percent of the rest of the population, you're physically super superior like no other - take pride in that achievement, you've earned it.

That's spot-on.  Whilst the UK isn't as fat as the US, we're fatter than most of our European neighbours, much to my shame.  It never ceases to amaze me that, whilst I am a couple or three pounds heavier for my (admittedly small, due to disability) size than would be ideal, by comparison to many people, I'm skeletal! 

For me, half the attraction is that these women are unlike almost all women one sees on a regular basis - most of whom, if under 35 or so tend either to be thin and frail-looking, or overweight and often downright blubbery.

Finally got it ready for Download. XD

http://rapidshare.com/files/149260816/msnbc_hooked_femalebb.rar.html

Enjoy

Much obliged, BK!

Anyone else having problems running the video?  It's going turbo speed for me, and I don't necessarily want to import it to Premiere Pro to watch it.

yep. me too. it speeds up, and then it just freezes. I tryed all the media players I have. And Yhanks for the efort BK, greatly appreciated.

Working on getting something of better quality soon, so stay tuned.

Can I put in a request for using AVI+XVID instead of WMV, Quicktime, or the like? Auto Gordion Knot is a very widely used "one-click" solution for doing this -  http://www.autogk.me.uk/.

I already had a clip ready. Only a half to a full second out of sync...but a helluva lot better than what crap I gave yall earlier.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SFUIEGRC

Thanks for the link BK, it works now!  I'd fix the audio lip syncing, but it's only off by like a second, so it's not enough for me to want to look into.  Great clip so far though!

Thanks BK. The quality is great. For those interested in fixing the audio sync problem, you can do it with AsfBin Master  http://www1.topdownloads.net/software/view.php?id=99191 (windows).

It resyncs the file without re-encoding so there's no loss in quality and it only takes a couple of minutes.

It's not that intuitive so here are the steps you have to go through:
1. Click on "File" -> "Add Video Files..." and select the original wmv file
2. Click on the blue arrow below the "Playlist" window to add the file to the "Included Segments" window
3. Click on "Edit" -> "Options". Then under "Audio", select "Delay" and enter the desired audio delay (750 seemed about right for this file)
4. Click on "File" -> "Produce Movie" and choose the name of the new wmv file

And that should be it!

so the megadownload never works for me.

Always ends up stalling before it his 100 megs.


anyone have another download site to get it from?

 :) Thanks a lot for sharing BlackK !! (http://winisdoerfer.free.fr/forum/Smileys/default/super01.gif)

nice job on the convert to WMV with good sound.

Anyone notice that the natural FBB and other FBB difference in size.  The non-natural FBB are about 3 times bigger than the natural ones.  God bless modern drugs!!

Review for the clip:

Well I'm pretty late in reviewing this clip, but better late than never right?

If anyone was expecting this clip to be a positive take on women's bodybuilding, sadly this is not the case.

The video tries its very best to remain neutral but the way they organized the interviews, clips, and specific soundbites that they wanted made bodybuilding seem very unappealing, unattractive, and worse yet a sort of mental disability.  They had some impressive clips of Kristy Hawkins and Colette Nelson, but they didn't show any bodybuilders that would really appeal to the mainstream.  Though muscular and powerful, I do not think Betty Viana is a good representation of a beautiful body builder.

They could have totally shown people like Cindy Phillips, Gina Davis, Lindsay Mullinazzi, Pauline Nordin and so on.  So the fact that they didn't bother to seek these people out made it all the more telling of their intention to show that they didn't do enough research into female body building.

They just gave the cold hard facts, added a professor explaining that they have a problem like muscle dysmorphia, hinted at steroids, and didn't make a hard enough attempt to show a balance perspective of the pros and cons.

This is definitely not a video you would want to show your girlfriend, if you wanted her to understand your fascination with female muscle.

I agree...  it's not overly negative like most clips usually are, but it's not very positive either.  And that Muscle Dysmorphia is total bs...  IF they look at themselves and think that they're small....they think they're small against other bodybuilders...  they know that they're much larger than the average person....  it's all relative...

Thanks for posting it for us to see.

Well, I'm not going to decry the possible existence of muscle dysmorphia, because I haven't studies psychiatry and performed research into the BBing community like the guy in the clip has.  I would suggest it's all down to presentation, balance and context - suggesting that his findings are true of most/all FBBers, only showing large FBBers (I'm not complaining about Kristy being featured because she's a favourite of mine, but the point is still valid) and generally setting a negative tone, as though the producers had decided the conclusions of the programme before they started filming.

That's how documentaries are made these day, old chap.

People don't engage in fact finding - they start with the opinion "FBBs are in some way defective individuals" and then build a case to substantiate it. Which is - as it turns out - a lot easier than actually making a balanced and insightful piece. Also, tends to be rather more popular. People are scared by a lack of knee jerk/shock documentaries... because then they aren't sure what they're being told to be afraid of.

In conclusion - people are rubbish and TV executives like to exploit that.

Well-argued indeed.

Hu? Context included; think of what you just said.

Valid points regarding the Shock-Doc. The truth of the matter for me is..  "muscle dysmorphia" is not a mental illness. For the right person,It's a gift.

That I find humanity to be a less than appealing species? It's a fairly normal view for an avowed misanthrope.

Muscle Dysmorphia... I think that is pretty much borne of the notion that deviation from societal norms is the product of some mental illness or cognitive malfunction. Therapists want your money.

But surely some norms do exist for a reason and muscle dysmorphia does result in very serious problems in some cases.

I mean, yes to girls who gym, yes to girls who are fitter and healthier than the average unhealthy one, yes to girls with attractive muscles that the rest of society turns their nose up at, yes to sthenolagnics (is that the term? no idea) like us who appreciate such women... but NO to women who become too obsessed with building up muscle to the point of doing all kinds of unhealthy things to themselves!

To defend certain kinds of extreme behaviour by pointing at some societal attitudinal bogeyman is almost like how those obese women you have over there in America go around stupidly campaigning for their "right" to be obese. Whether or not you win the "right" to do silly things to yourself is not the point -- the point is that you're dying because of it!

Typically, "schmo" is the commonly used term for female muscle fan.

However, it usually applies to a socially-dysfunctional oddball.

The term "schmo" is a derogatory word for a female bodybuilding fan and I, for one, can't stand it! It's a Jewish word that originally meant a stupid or obnoxious person, similar to schmuck. I personally prefer the term "FBB fan".

I resemble that remark.  FBB FAN is a decent term(I should say), but I gotta tell you, I have not heard that term "Shmoe" applied to a fan of female muscle.  How often is this term used, and is anyone aware of female bodybuilders actually using this term?

The only FBB I know that referred to fans as schmoes is Denise Masino and maybe Lauren Powers.  That's about it.

I never assigned a positive or negative connotation to it.  Only that it is used in referance to FBBr fans.


If you hang out over at Unrealmuscle you'll see it turn up amongst the regulars, tho, within the context of a jesting put-down of each other and their interest.  When it’s used in a derogatory fashion, I've noticed that it comes from those with a serious and active participation in the sport.

And try Muscle Mayhem - there was a thread there (Grrlz section?) a while back that got into the topic of schmos, pro/con.

From what I know of the history of the word "schmoe", it was originally used by the late Kay Baxter and Pillow. Back when they at their height. That was when I first saw the word used. And it did seem, at the time, to make light of the men who were attracted to FBBs and muscular women. I never liked the word and would never refer to myself as such.  >:(

I'd only ever heard it used to refer to an ordinary (and probably clueless) person.  Like the Joe Schmoe show: a reality show where all of the contestents were actors hired to play roles, except for a single guy who was kept out of the loop (and the whole purpose of the show was to try and maintain the illusion that it was an "authentic" reality show).  That one guy was the titular "Joe Schmoe" (and the show was generally pretty entertaining).

The things you learn on the Internet...

That's odd. Interesting discussion on "Schmoe". But from various places I always saw "schmoo".

Anyways sthenolagnia is the paraphilia we all have down here. So I suppose we're sthenolag...nics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sthenolagnia

The Schmoo or more properly, Shmoo, is/was a character from Al Cap's Li'l Abner comic strip.

Link: http://www.deniskitchen.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=bios.shmoo

Given it's over-fawning nature, I think we can assume that this, combined with the Yiddish word schmo and its related meaning, is how some (i.e. Kay Baxter and Pillow) early-on came to tag FBBr fans as schmos.

Hehe. The only problem with that term is that it's non-gender specific. So you would have to say I'm a heterosexual sthenolagniac, which is quite a mouthful I must say!

Possibly sthenolagniacs.

Luv has it right. Baxter and Pillow used it to refer to the fans who used to kind of follow them around. Tina Lockwood useed it too. It is in some wrasslin vids too. Doughdee used it. It was my interpretation that it meant a creepy guy who kind of was quiet and followed them around.

I've spoken to some name fbbs and they do in some cases find some fans to be a tad creepy and to fit this stereotype. I don't reallyfit it look wise and a couple of big name girls even asked me why I liked it and were surprised I did.

There must be a few guys out there who really get a tad crazy with it. I look at it like a fetish in my case.

Schmoe came from Kay or Pillow. I think Kay is credited with it. The fbb scene and all that was new back then. I'm sure Bill Wick knows the history.He was married to kay. Well...actually.... suire may be a bit strong ;D

Yeah you would never call a 250lb male bodybuilder who is married to an fbb a schmoe.

Maybe not a make bodybuilder,, but most of those guys are wusses. If they were good athletes they would not be in bodybuilding on the mens side.Most of those guys are nothing if you are a skilled fighter..trust me.
Secondly, I do know men bigger than 250 who kind of joke about beoing schmoes. I personally don't care for the term, but I ahve heard some normal and bigger size guys call themselves that.

The female fbbs often gravitate to the male fbbs for 2 reasons. One is the lifestyle second is the roids.
The best ahtles combine strength and speed with speed being primary. Male bodybuilders are often short little guys who couldn't make it in any other sport. There are exceptions of course, but most of these guys are just little juiceheads.

The females tend to come from a sports background. there is much more oportunity for men in sports. Most people have no idea who the mr olympia is ...including me. I think young kids aspire to be Tom Brady or Cal Ripken first...then about 10 other sports. If all fails, then hit the gym and try bodybuilding. That has been my general experience. Not one make bodybuilder has ever done anything big in another sports...unless you count the WWE.

Well, I don't understand why you think the psychology of male and female bodybuilding would be so different. However, I do agree with your point that it makes sense that male and female bodybuilders would tend to date one another, but I think that's slowly changing as more women take up bodybuilding by being inspired by other female bodybuilders instead of being introduced to the sport by their bodybuilder boyfriends. I've heard some female bodybuilders say that they don't date male bodybuilders as they tend to be overly conceited or can get jealous if their partner does better in competitions than they do. For example, Klaudia Larson told me on an online chat that she was going out with an ordinary guy and not a bodybuilder.

Back to the schmoe issue - if a guy is going to start stalking a female bodybuilder, then they deserve to be called a schmoe, (that and having criminal charges laid against them), but I don't think it's fair to put that label on anyone who is a fan. I mean football fans who take it too far and get violent are called hooligans, but that it doesn't mean that all soccer fans are hooligans. And what about female FBB fans? I don't think you would call a girl a schmoe, although schmoette does have a nice ring to it :).

The psychology of it isn't all that different asd far as the people trying to win bodybuilding titles. The athlete type in it is different in a general sense. Tell me one male bodybuilder who's been a top flight ath;lete in any other sport. There might be a couple, but Ican't think of any. Wouldn't you think one in 30 years would be a star in somce sport. Football or anything? Can't even think of one who was good in college. Those guys go wwe where more money is available and it has more upside.

The females actually jumped the males in the 90's because they were new. It is difficult now with the whole stigma of the sport. We have more incredible women than ever, but some opt for weightlifting or strongwoman as well. When you go to the gym and I've been to quite a few there are less fbbs training than 15 years ago as for as for competition. By alot. I used to find unreal unknowns once in awhile. They just aren't around much now. I wish.

The schmoe thing by the girls came from Kay and Pillow and was passed on. It isn't always a derogatory terms and the girls don't say it to your face as far as I have ever seen. I've heard guys ask them or say it themselves and then they'll smile and so forth. The girls I've heard describe negative experiences have told me things off the record after In bonded with them in person. It is much harder to bond in chat, though you can in a certain way. I'm much better off in person. Some people are not that as type a or outgoing. Ia slo keep myself fit and don't look bad which definitely helps break the ice.

Schmoette  :D It's kinda cute actually.  ;D  Similar to Smirfette I think.

Smurftastic! (http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/376_smurf.gif)

Can we rehabilitate the word "schmoe", then?

From what Alex was saying, I think that's pretty much what has happened, and you can light-heartedly refer to someone as a schmoe and they wouldn't be offended. But my problem is that the word schmoe still has its original meaning of jerk or loser, so there's always going to be that negative connotation if we continue to use it.

For those unafraid to courageously announce it to the entire world, shall earn the rank of ascended.  (http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/engel/d025.gif)

For those with a select cabal of trusted comrades, and comradettes, proudly adept in the know, they shall hold the rank of master.  (http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/figuren/a060.gif)

For those that keep it close to the vest, that not even their significance other is aware of it, they shall be bestowed the rank of acolyte.   (http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/figuren/c055.gif)

I like the cut of your jib, AlexG.  ;)
Assign different positive levels to it, and the word becomes a mark of pride.
I'm reminded how certain minorities/lifestyles have taken insulting terms and made them their own.

To revive an old topic, anyone know who that asian natural bodybuilder was?