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Author Topic: Femuscle stories -- 'story' versus 'extended scene'.  (Read 2772 times)
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stmercy2020
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latrans321
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« Reply #16 on: Jan 02, 2008, 09:55 AM »

Let me get this out of the way -- yes, you do have every right to critique -- in fact, as a fellow writer, you have a duty to judge, and harshly (but still constructively, bear in mind.)

I have to disagree with you, I'm afraid.  Unless an author has <i>asked</i> you to critique them, you really <i>don't</i> have the right to say anything.  I would also argue that merely placing something on a forum is not the same as asking for criticism- if the request isn't explicit, then the request doesn't exist.

That said, you <i>do</i> have the right to make judgements- indeed, you can hardly stop yourself from doing so- just not the right to inflict them on anyone else.

Writing is a science, bare minimum. Done well, writing is an art. If you have a technique that will enable your fellow craftsman to improve his product, how selfish is it to spare his feelings at the expense of his art?

An interesting point.  Let me throw this question back at you; how <i>foolish</i> is it to critique someone- even constructively, as you say- if your criticism is so harsh that it stifles productivity?  While I would agree that some, even most, authors on the internet share an appalling disregard for grammar, punctuation and spelling, sometimes it isn't their fault (such as when they've chosen to share something in English when it isn't their native language) and attacking their mechanical skills is not only cruel, but counterproductive.

Several of your assertions in this thread have left me feeling moderately offended, I'm afraid.  Basically, your tendency to state things as black-and-white, as inarguable truths which people must accept or be labelled wrong (spelling, writing-as-science, characters vs. caricatures) irritates me not because you don't raise valid points, but because you present them as absolutes.  Certainly you are entitled to your opinion, but try to acknowledge that it is just that- your opinion- and that everyone else is also entitled to their own views as well.
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 02, 2008, 11:48 AM »

I have to disagree with you, I'm afraid.  Unless an author has <i>asked</i> you to critique them, you really <i>don't</i> have the right to say anything.  I would also argue that merely placing something on a forum is not the same as asking for criticism- if the request isn't explicit, then the request doesn't exist.

Ah, but readers will judge. Not only will readers judge, they will critique, and rarely will it be constructive. In other words, if Joe Writer puts forth a story that sucks, he's generally going to be told that it sucks. Telling him why it sucks, so that his next one won't, is a kindness to him. And a writer invites that criticism with every submission.

Quote
That said, you <i>do</i> have the right to make judgements- indeed, you can hardly stop yourself from doing so- just not the right to inflict them on anyone else.

Well, that's where criticism is a two-way street. After all, everybody and his dog can tell the Emperor he's nekkid, but if they Emperor don't wanna hear it... *laughs*

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An interesting point.  Let me throw this question back at you; how <i>foolish</i> is it to critique someone- even constructively, as you say- if your criticism is so harsh that it stifles productivity?

Good criticism doesn't. And yes, criticism can also be evaluated critically. "Yer story sux0rz!" shouldn't hold an ounce of weight in a writer's evaluation of his work. Might influence his evaluations of the media he's submitting to, but as criticism that kind of vague, mean-spirited junk ranks somewhere below the opinions of New York roaches.

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While I would agree that some, even most, authors on the internet share an appalling disregard for grammar, punctuation and spelling, sometimes it isn't their fault (such as when they've chosen to share something in English when it isn't their native language) and attacking their mechanical skills is not only cruel, but counterproductive.

A honed ear can usually detect second-language English in writing.

Quote
Several of your assertions in this thread have left me feeling moderately offended, I'm afraid.  Basically, your tendency to state things as black-and-white, as inarguable truths which people must accept or be labelled wrong (spelling, writing-as-science, characters vs. caricatures) irritates me not because you don't raise valid points, but because you present them as absolutes.

Absolutely. I'll level with you here -- absolutely nothing is absolute. (See? I do have a sense of humor!) Just as no one can reach perfection (the all-encompassing absolute) that doesn't mean we should all give up trying.

Quote
Certainly you are entitled to your opinion, but try to acknowledge that it is just that- your opinion- and that everyone else is also entitled to their own views as well.

I've never said -- and would never dream of saying -- otherwise.
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stmercy2020
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latrans321
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« Reply #18 on: Jan 02, 2008, 11:37 PM »

Quote
Ah, but readers will judge. Not only will readers judge, they will critique, and rarely will it be constructive. In other words, if Joe Writer puts forth a story that sucks, he's generally going to be told that it sucks. Telling him why it sucks, so that his next one won't, is a kindness to him. And a writer invites that criticism with every submission.

We agree that readers will judge and even that some will go to the trouble of saying hurtful or cruel things.  That's really not the issue- if a writer is so insecure that he can't handle that, it's a shame, but not one I'm likely to lose sleep over.  I think where we fundamentally disagree is in the right of a competent, skilled writer to express not only the opinion that something "sucks," but also the reason "why it sucks."  The implication is that you know what the author was attempting and how to achieve it better than he does.  While you may, in fact, have correctly discerned what the author was trying to do, it's also possible that you haven't or that you're way off base in your attempted remedy.  Once again, I think it comes down to a matter of approach.

Also, people publish things on the internet for a variety of reasons.  I suspect the most common reason is self-gratification.  If that is the case, then telling such a person that their story is terrible, even if you then go on to tell them how to, in your opinion, fix it, is not something that will be well received.  In fact, it is more probable that you will accomplish nothing productive and may start what amounts to a flame war.

I think what it comes down to is this: I feel that if you are going to give your opinion about someone else's work, you should (1) be certain that your opinion is desired and (2) state explicitly that it is your opinion.
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Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards.

Lois McMaster Bujold,
"A Civil Campaign", 1999
The Saint
Tenderfoot
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Gender: Male
Posts: 24


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« Reply #19 on: Jan 03, 2008, 05:43 PM »

We agree that readers will judge and even that some will go to the trouble of saying hurtful or cruel things.  That's really not the issue- if a writer is so insecure that he can't handle that, it's a shame, but not one I'm likely to lose sleep over.  I think where we fundamentally disagree is in the right of a competent, skilled writer to express not only the opinion that something "sucks," but also the reason "why it sucks."  The implication is that you know what the author was attempting and how to achieve it better than he does.  While you may, in fact, have correctly discerned what the author was trying to do, it's also possible that you haven't or that you're way off base in your attempted remedy.  Once again, I think it comes down to a matter of approach.

Also, people publish things on the internet for a variety of reasons.  I suspect the most common reason is self-gratification.  If that is the case, then telling such a person that their story is terrible, even if you then go on to tell them how to, in your opinion, fix it, is not something that will be well received.  In fact, it is more probable that you will accomplish nothing productive and may start what amounts to a flame war.

I think what it comes down to is this: I feel that if you are going to give your opinion about someone else's work, you should (1) be certain that your opinion is desired and (2) state explicitly that it is your opinion.

What it really boils down to, in my eyes, is this: we both agree that when you put your work out there for an audience, you have to expect your audience to respond to it, both negatively and positively. Fellow writers, in that context, are simply (hopefully) more educated readers, and even their reactions (both positive and negative) should reflect that.
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