Good points Collector.


This photo illustrates your point quite well:



These girls are small but perfectly formed. Not so hard to believe this could be achieved by natural training and nutrition. Throw in J's sweet feminine voice, perfect skin, good hair and pretty face - and I'm a believer!

I'm offended. Weather or not your are trying to call the members of this board ignorant thats how it's coming off. 

And from what your saying there can not be any truely exceptional female who possesses physiology such as Jennifer Abrams, Rhonda Dethlefs, and Carman Unger who all pride themselves on being drug free are all lying. Not everyone's chemical makeup is the same so I can beleive that there are some women in the sport who can build a lovely physique without drugs. I however am in no way ignorent to the fact that these women are at a very heavy(and I do stress the words very heavy) disadvantage to the girls that juice.

If your going to make statements such as the ones you need to back it up with sonething more than a challenge that is based off other people's opinions and be more carefull in your criticism of other peoples level of knowledge on the matter before they even state them. It's not a big secret that the people that frequent boards like these are obsessed with the primary subject of the board and will study it with great passion. So to say that "some of you don't know much (or are in denial) about the "dark side" of bodybuilding" is a lot like telling a mechanic that he doesn't know much about cars. 

Well I knew that comment will spark some fireworks here =), so I'll try and respond to each of you the best I can.


For the first part of your comment (the strength of a 14 y.o girl), I am speaking in terms of muscle size; I am not qualified to answer anything on feats of strength.

(6 pack abs of 7 year old girl), I assume your refering to gymnasts; with this group of incredibly gifted youngsters they are doing massive amounts of cardio based activity, ab work (strengthen core), and have impeccable diets. In combonation with relativly low body fats to begin with, geting a 6 pac of abs is very attainable considering how much work they put on. Again, no muscle size here. (and yes, I am well aware that gymnasts have defined, well built, muscular frames but they are not on a pro or national Fbb level)

(steroid signs of JD), steroid "tells" like acne or jaw distortions as you refered to are purley on a case to case basis. Another words a person can juice there entire life and not experience a single sign of steroid abuse because of genetic disposition to the drug or in some cases becuase of prevention substances used to fight the side effects (yes, I am aware that some side effects are not "reversable" or "fightable/ hideable"). For example, take someone like Kevin Leverone, this man at one time was a massive freak of muscle, and from all acounts (pics, videos, and personal stories from metting the man) I nor anyone that I have ever encountered has ever saw any tell tale signs of steroid use besides his immense frame.

(photo deception), yes it is very true that size is simply an illusion created on stage for the purposes of faceing fellow competitors. Agreed

(met Jd/ evidence), No I have never met JD, a local gym rat like me is not worthy of meeting a godis like her. As i explained earlier, just because she has no visible side effects, does not mean that she dosent take roids, hgh, or insulin; it merly means that she responds amazing well to the drugs. And I can assure you that I am in no way "targeting" JD because i have nothing but great respect for each and every Fbb'er. Even if say, a girl in my local gym, took roids, hgh, and insulin; that girl will proboblly never be able to compete on the nation stage because of genetic limitations, balance issues, or lack of reponse to the substacnes (to compete at THAT level).

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If you are indeed offended all I can do is offer you my apologies, but I can assure you (as i think you know) that was not my intention. Yes, I think that everyone who competes nationally and pro level juice at least; so you know where I stand when those people you mentioned claim to be natural. And I never said that you specifically where ignorant to steroid useage; obviosuly your not.

I offered the challenge because I knew that no matter what I said, there would be those who did not believe me; it was just another way of verifying my argument. And by the way, male Pro's on those sites are considered the paramount of body building opinions, not saying that they are right about everything in BB'ing, but I can say with full faith that those select few can tell if a person is taking roids just by looking at a photo. Yes I know that sounds ridiculous to many of you, but IMO it is true espcially for Fbb's. So yes I am supremly confident in thier knowledge (those select few, perhaps I should have specified that more in my post-granted.) Well in my experience on these boards, I think many have blind faith in that they refuse to believe that any fbb takes roids, and for some reason think that steroids are cheating in BB'ing---there not. They are a given. So perhaps my experience was not the same as yours, but thats the consitent impression I get from the majority (not the everyone of course).