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June 2, 2007 at 11:13 pm #53108
Chuck
ParticipantHey all! I had an idea I'd like to put out for brainstorming: how does one get a buff and busty superheroine taken seriously by comic book readers?
When I say this, consider the ones who currently are taken seriously or at least have their own monthly series: Amazing Spider-Girl, Super Girl, Wonder Woman, She-Hulk, and Red Sonja, to name a few. While the body types vary amongst all of the titles' protagonists, some seem to get more credit than others. I find all the above entertaining, but how does one do this without being relegated to the cheesecake bin with Shi, Lady Death, Witchblade, and Gold Diggers?
(I love Gold Diggers as much as the next fellow because of Fred Perry's love of Star Wars and anime references, but no one I know takes it seriously because of how the characters are depicted.)
Everyone takes Superman and his hyper muscularity seriously but you don't see him being regarded as eye candy for women ???. Why can't there be a female Superman who looks just as powerful as he does and get taken seriously? I know we have Power Girl, but a lot of people who don't read the comics pigeonhole her character fro two big reasons.
Is there a way to have one's cake and eat it too? To tell a thought provoking, entertaining, humorous story AND have your main character look like she could take a tank apart with her bare hands AND be busty?
June 3, 2007 at 2:03 am #53109btx
ParticipantHey all! I had an idea I'd like to put out for brainstorming: how does one get a buff and busty superheroine taken seriously by comic book readers?
When I say this, consider the ones who currently are taken seriously or at least have their own monthly series: Amazing Spider-Girl, Super Girl, Wonder Woman, She-Hulk, and Red Sonja, to name a few. While the body types vary amongst all of the titles' protagonists, some seem to get more credit than others. I find all the above entertaining, but how does one do this without being relegated to the cheesecake bin with Shi, Lady Death, Witchblade, and Gold Diggers?
(I love Gold Diggers as much as the next fellow because of Fred Perry's love of Star Wars and anime references, but no one I know takes it seriously because of how the characters are depicted.)
Everyone takes Superman and his hyper muscularity seriously but you don't see him being regarded as eye candy for women ???. Why can't there be a female Superman who looks just as powerful as he does and get taken seriously? I know we have Power Girl, but a lot of people who don't read the comics pigeonhole her character fro two big reasons.
Is there a way to have one's cake and eat it too? To tell a thought provoking, entertaining, humorous story AND have your main character look like she could take a tank apart with her bare hands AND be busty?
Frankly I think the answer is a no. Power Girl may be as good as it gets…. and she already provokes forum disscussions about bust size and "man-muscles". Check out Newsarama sometime if you don't believe me. Shi, Lady Death and Witchblade were a big deal back in the 90's (Witchblade had her own TV show) and in a way they're part of the problem. The breast inflations of the 90's along with pornstar aesthetic caused a backlash among comic fans pushing these titles into the quarter bins. Now we're in a more puritan phase. Look at the "Supergirl is a slut" threads on forums. It's kinda hypocritical in a way; they still want comic women to look "Hawt" but with smaller boobs and shorter skirts.
As for hyperbuff physiques, the problem is one artist will make the girl into big buff "HyperWoman", but the next artist will size her down first chance he gets. This happens I don't know how many times with She Hulk and Power Girl. Unless Editorial insists that the artist stay "on model" when drawing strong women, you're more than likely to have a stick girl throwing a car and punching giant robots.
That said, one possible idea would be to make the buff girl a member of a team. It's very hard to launch a new title these days and nearly impossible for a solo character. So make HyperWoman a member of a team. Also make her a freak… an outsider character. I'm not saying make her unnatractive…. but play on the notion that "normal" people will be put off by her muscularity… reflecting the attitude of the casual reader. This makes her an 'underdog' that can build sympathies as she heroically struggles against the threats she faces and proves herself to be a good teammate. She Hulk's stint on the Fantastic Four/Avengers really built up her character. It's unfortunate the John Byrne and Dan Slott opted for "comedy at all costs" and helped undermine her credibility.
The other approach is to make her an out an out monster. A muscular she beast driven by single minded revenge on the men who wronged her… and other men who wrong women. This migh actually 'excuse' the muscles and the violent revenge motiff has worked for Wolverine, Punisher, Batman to name a few.
… And there'd be no comedy….
BTX
June 3, 2007 at 3:15 am #53110
TC2ParticipantI don't think the monster approach would really work well for the audience. Mainly because, people seem to accept the fact that men could be monsters, but women doing what men do, with muscles? Those projects would get scrapped almost immediately.
The audience is just simply not ready for that, but it is possible to have women heroes taken more seriously, it's just that not enough women heroes are shown to be "bad ass".
For instance, if anyone has seen "The Last Samurai" (2003) there is one Samurai character called Ujio who single handedly takes on six guys at once and just chops anyone down who stands in his way. If you were to show a woman to display that kind of technique AND she had muscles, she would certainly gain a hell of a lot more respect.
When you put ridiculous costumes, bad storyline, terrible writing, and inconsistent artwork in a comic book; you get a super heroine that no one wants to take seriously. I have a character that I've designed to have the body of whom you guys may remember as this has been posted on the forum. "Gracyanne Barbosa" who has a defined six pack, strong leg muscles, great overall body. Though my character will have larger biceps and breasts, I'm going to use this body type to create the "bad ass" moment I described without making it cheesy.
If this is pulled off correctly it will definitely be a heroine that is taken seriously.
June 3, 2007 at 10:42 am #53111Vollar-Tile
ParticipantHey all! I had an idea I'd like to put out for brainstorming: how does one get a buff and busty superheroine taken seriously by comic book readers?
When I say this, consider the ones who currently are taken seriously or at least have their own monthly series: Amazing Spider-Girl, Super Girl, Wonder Woman, She-Hulk, and Red Sonja, to name a few. While the body types vary amongst all of the titles' protagonists, some seem to get more credit than others. I find all the above entertaining, but how does one do this without being relegated to the cheesecake bin with Shi, Lady Death, Witchblade, and Gold Diggers?
(I love Gold Diggers as much as the next fellow because of Fred Perry's love of Star Wars and anime references, but no one I know takes it seriously because of how the characters are depicted.)
Everyone takes Superman and his hyper muscularity seriously but you don't see him being regarded as eye candy for women ???.
Because that's not the focus of the audience. More guys read Superman than girls (same said for most comics actually), so that's almost never likely to happen. Also he's been around since basically the beginning, so it's not surprising he gets respected…somewhat. If you visit a comicbook messageboard, Superman's comic still catches his own chunk of flak.
But on his physique, Superman's build is normal stature for most in comics, like the supermodel physique is the norm for most female superheroes.
Why can't there be a female Superman who looks just as powerful as he does and get taken seriously? I know we have Power Girl, but a lot of people who don't read the comics pigeonhole her character fro two big reasons.
I'm thinking more along one reason; the writers don't take her very seriously. Nowadays, PG's track record is all over the place with people who didn't know what to do with her.
For instance, all the momentum built up by Infinite Crisis for PG; she was back to being full kryptonian; but what has she been doing lately to back up that status? Jack all. She's still being treated like she always has in battles and stories, only now she can shoot heatvision, (which didn't help much against Black Adam casually dealing with her), and has yet to do anything of significance.
Is there a way to have one's cake and eat it too? To tell a thought provoking, entertaining, humorous story AND have your main character look like she could take a tank apart with her bare hands AND be busty?
Probably not if you're going through the primary comic franchises(DC and MArvel), and if you don't have a unique angle, as DC and Marvel have practically cornered the market on every type of character out there, male or female.
My personal egocentric thoughts on the matter:
I would probably say if anything, she'd probably have to start out as a villian to catch any momentum. That and I would probably stay away from cliche 'anti-man' amazon personas, and 'angst-b***h' personas (like current Supergirl).
I think Collector's on the right path about badass scenarios. Wonder Woman probably earn the most respect I've ever seen from her, around the time she willingly blinded herself to take down Medusa(I don't even like Wonder Woman, and I have to admit that my care about her went up a notch after that scene).
On the otherhand I disagree with BTX; comedy can be a wonderful thing. 😀 I find that I can read and digest a story easier when there's either alot of good action, or atleast something that makes me smile once in awhile. And if you try to make people respect your character, just the opposite might happen.
That and……… the Spiderman trial was gold.
I didn't like Byrne's book; the jokes just weren't funny to me and the art and storyline was rather boring. But Dan's Shulkie book would have probably been like every other ongoing superhero comic out there if it wasn't for that; boring and angsty with a ton of pace-inhibiting narrating monologues (I'm looking at you, Superman). That ontop of actually doing some significant things in her book, (the power gem arc, taking down the clone Thanos), has rather brought her out above the other female superheroes at this point, and away from the 'I'm a green strongwoman with the name "she hulk" tagged on'.
Guh… I babble too much.
But most of this has just been stuff I've been muddling about lately myself.
June 3, 2007 at 5:05 pm #53112ParticipantOn the otherhand I disagree with BTX; comedy can be a wonderful thing. 😀 I find that I can read and digest a story easier when there's either alot of good action, or atleast something that makes me smile once in awhile. And if you try to make people respect your character, just the opposite might happen.
That and……… the Spiderman trial was gold.
I didn't like Byrne's book; the jokes just weren't funny to me and the art and storyline was rather boring. But Dan's Shulkie book would have probably been like every other ongoing superhero comic out there if it wasn't for that; boring and angsty with a ton of pace-inhibiting narrating monologues (I'm looking at you, Superman). That ontop of actually doing some significant things in her book, (the power gem arc, taking down the clone Thanos), has rather brought her out above the other female superheroes at this point, and away from the 'I'm a green strongwoman with the name "she hulk" tagged on'.
Guh… I babble too much.
But most of this has just been stuff I've been muddling about lately myself.
I'm not anti-comedy, but this thread is about how to take buff superwomen seriously.
I like Slott's approach much better than Byrne's if only because Shulkie breaking the "fourth wall" made the stories essentially irrelavant in the Marvel Universe. But Slott sets a tone of "light adventure" that works against she hulk a little. The "World Without A Hulk" arc was supposed to show shulkie able to handle Hulk level threats like the Abomination and Wendigo. The result? Abomination is "stupided"down so she can trick him, plus she has an assist from Iron Prick. Meanwhile, up against Wendigo, Shulkie gets another assist from Mr. Overexposed Wolverine to take him down.
What happened to the muscles? Early on, Slott established that if Jen went to the gym to buff out (even little girly muscles) She Hulk would get progressively stronger. She should be able to take out Hulk level threats on her own with no assist from male heroes. But that would go against the "comedy" wouldn't it? I think too much comedy makes She Hulk harmless. And NO hulk should ever be harmless.
As for Collector 2's suggestion about a kind of buff female Samurai, lemme tell ya'….a little off topic….
Jackie Chan killed buff action women….
Hear me out… The late 80's/Early 90's seemed to be the beginnings of a "buff age" for women action heroes. Cory, Teegan and Raye had appeared in movies…Linda Hamilton was the first lead actress to buff up for Terminator 2… American Gladiators was flying high corrupting the minds of children and teenagers with female buffitude (some of you grew up and post on this forum 😉 ).
But Jackie's breakthrough into the American mainstream brought acrobatic "stunt-fu" to the masses along with kickass women ( Michelle Yeoh, Cynthia Rothrock ) who weren't necessarily buff ( Rothrock most definitely was ). It allowed women to convincingly kick ass, in a balletic style without "punching like girl", which was the problem if they tried to fight western style (roundhouse punching, jabbing etc.)
With that kind of style you don't need muscles ( I mean, chubby Drew Barrymore, Charlies Angels, nuff said. ) FBB's were no longer needed. The phone stopped ringing. And while some actress would still build impressive physiques ( Hilary Swank, Carrie Moss ) Stunt-Fu became the easy way out for filmakers that wanted women kickass not badass.
It's the same with comics too. A samurai warrior woman wouldn't need to be drawn buff. You can have her take out Yakuza and Ninja's and she'd still have the build of an anorexic teenage girl. I see Slott has made Shulkie into a kind of "Jane Jitsu". After Abomination quits laughing he breaks her legs… oh but wait, it's a comedy, so Abomination is stoopid.
As for my "monster" idea, I don't want her drawn fugly. What I mean is that to the average comic reader muscular women are ugly "men with boobs" so why not confront the idea head on and make the character something of an outsider. You don't have to make her "man-hating" violent obsessive. You can even make her funny. But when it comes down to the threat situation she's all business. All Muscle and no Fu. ;D
Sorry about the long winded rant… I think this thread strikes a nerve (in a good way.)
BTX
June 3, 2007 at 5:45 pm #53113
AlexGKeymaster. . . she has an assist from Iron Prick.
Actually, you're giving him far too much credit – and insulting pricks, everywhere. 😉
Iron Man = The neo-Dr Doom. 8)
My own opinion is that we're a very long way off before its taken seriously in the comics, since they are a reflection of pop-culture and culture has (in the current era) acquired a distaste for real-world musclegals on the uberbuffed lines that we enjoy.
After all, if Lyman Dally couldn't make a go of his two comics, which should have had major appeal to our niche (cult?) audience, what makes anyone think a major player is going risk the invested capital in a mainstream character/title?
As for uberbuffed, the most muscular render of any was She-Hulk in Avengers: Search for the She-Hulk and they made her out to be a whackjob psycho towndestroyer, without any regards for the lives of others. Hardly what I'd call the kind of positive reinforcement that we are looking for in buffed superwomen.
“I like a good story well told. That is the reason I am sometimes forced to tell them myself.”
~ Mark Twain / Samuel Clemens (1907)June 3, 2007 at 6:01 pm #53114ParticipantAs for uberbuffed, the most muscular render of any was She-Hulk in Avengers: Search for the She-Hulk and they made her out to be a whackjob psycho towndestroyer, without any regards for the lives of others. Hardly what I'd call the kind of positive reinforcement that we are looking for in buffed superwomen.
Yeah, thank you for that odd little story arc, Geoff Johns ;).
June 3, 2007 at 6:07 pm #53115ParticipantAs for my "monster" idea, I don't want her drawn fugly. What I mean is that to the average comic reader muscular women are ugly "men with boobs" so why not confront the idea head on and make the character something of an outsider. You don't have to make her "man-hating" violent obsessive. You can even make her funny. But when it comes down to the threat situation she's all business. All Muscle and no Fu. ;D
Yeah, I did have an idea for a story where our Hyperwoman protagonist ponders how everyone says that she has 'man hands' but goes out and saves the day with a smile on her face. And in the end you have to have her scrawny significant other saying he likes her hands as they are. Ah, the joys of carefree positive reinforcement.
June 3, 2007 at 8:38 pm #53116Grandmaster
ParticipantHey all! I had an idea I'd like to put out for brainstorming: how does one get a buff and busty superheroine taken seriously by comic book readers?
Stop fetishizing muscles! A story has to have something going on in the narrative besides how buff the character is. If the creator is fetishizing his own creation, naturally the reader/viewer will follow his lead. That's the power of art. How much muscle the characters have should not be a plot device. Stop drawing figures in overtly sexual positions (worm-eye POV shots of crotches and butts). No characters with "do me" facial expressions and commentary (assuming they are not being "done"). No clothing that over-emphasizes female attributes in your illustrations (low cut shirts and butt floss are not as common in women's daily attire as men would hope)–keep it realistic and relevant to real life, not what's realistic and relevant in porn and the gentleman's clubs).
Learn to illustrate heroic poses and body language. Develop characterizations that are not based on the character's sexuality. "Sexuality" is not the same thing as gender–a mistake a lot of creators make. A female character can be sexual, but if her image invites one to wonder what she looks like f*cking rather what she's thinking about, you're headed the wrong way.
Don't do anything to a female character that you wouldn't do to a male character. Yes, both a female superhero and a male superhero can be captured by their nemeses and tied up, but if you wouldn't draw the male superhero with his balls compressed to epic proportions by his restraints because that's not "sexy" to you, what reason is there to do the same to the female superhero's breasts, if you're intention is not to say, "Look at these puppies!"? That is hard to take seriously.
Is there a way to have one's cake and eat it too? To tell a thought provoking, entertaining, humorous story AND have your main character look like she could take a tank apart with her bare hands AND be busty?
Of course there is, but the story has to actually be all of the things you mention, and that can happen only by developing one's craft. (Let someone whose intelligence you trust read your work–if they don't find it funny, then it's most likely not.) It's not necessarily bust size that precludes female characters from being taken seriously, it's that there's often nothing else going on in their stories to engage people, so that's what people latch onto. So to speak. 😉
June 3, 2007 at 9:02 pm #53117ParticipantWow! "Stop fetishizing your character!" That sounds like Mario Gully's comic "The Ant"!
He says that his book features a strong black woman character that should be taken seriously, but a quick perusal of the book reveals more than one instance of her sticking her well rounded butt in the air more times than is necessary.
And as for Bill Black's Femforce… dude, let's just forget that comic exists for a second. If I ever get a chance, I want to rip that book a new one in regards to how it depicts female characters.
Very good insights so far, everyone :).
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