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June 18, 2007 at 5:59 pm #54040
Yaponvezos
ParticipantSince I feel I've sidetracked the Michael Moore thread enough already and the whole conversation got me quite intrigued, I thought it should go on in a different thread.
The purpose of this thread to is to is to give everyone the opportunity to express their views on the USA and Europe. As far as I'm concerned you can all go overboard with this, I will hold no grudge as a European. I'm just trying to figure out how we are viewed and through that learn more about the average American. Though one could argue that by being on this board none of us is actually what would be considered average but I think you get my point.
So to get this thing started. I get the feeling that the average Greek doesn't really like the USA that much. It's not so much about its people as it is about the country's foreign policy. The general view in this part of this world is that the USA interferes in other countries' affairs more than it should. That of course is a matter of politics.
Personally, if there is one thing I don't like about the average American is the fact that he feels self contained enough to not give a damn about the rest of the world. To be more specific, let's take news sites (be it political news, tech news, entertainment news etc.). It is a fact that an ever increasing portion of such sites' readers are not Americans. Why? Simple because foreigners often feel that these sites are better organized, faster at what they do and with good reason. But let's say a product is announced, a product that will come out in Europe as well but at a somewhat later date and that later date has been announced as well. Most sites won't even bother to mention the european date, in my experience at least. It can't be extra work as we 're just talking about a date. So why would that be neglected? Can there be any other reason than the fact that the average american actually doesn't care? Keep in mind that we 're talking about a business, at which I might be actually paying through a membership etc.
One more thing, I have no intention to flame anyone and this is not a place for flaming. I aim at having exciting conversation in order to learn more.
June 18, 2007 at 9:37 pm #54041Lingster
KeymasterWell, the U.S. is a big country. We are self-absorbed because there's enough going on here to keep our attention occupied. Also, most Americans never visit the Eastern Hemisphere, and until recently could visit Canada and Mexico without passports.
So since we're not that interested in Europe, we're always a little stunned that Europe is so interested in us. Many Americans don't understand why you Europeans find us so fascinating. Also, a lot of us find it amusing that you spend so much time paying attention to the U.S. and still get so much wrong.
It's true the U.S. interfered in Greek politics during the Cold War (most contentiously from the mid-60s through the mid-70s), to keep Greece from going over to the Soviet camp. But we certainly didn't invent your problems. Your problems are centuries old and arguably would have been far more aggravated if Greece had gone over to the Soviet side. (And, by the way, the only reason there was a risk of Greece going over to the Soviets was because of long-term Soviet interference in Greece.)
Regardless, the United States was correct to obstruct communism, within its right of self-defense to obstruct communism, and within its NATO treaty obligations to prevent Greece from falling to Soviet domination. (Greece joined NATO voluntarily.)
People often look for a bogeyman to blame for the injustices of the world, and the United States is large enough and powerful enough to credibly fill this role. But when people are asked to identify concrete wrongs committed by the U.S., the examples are usually pretty weak. For example, you Greeks feel anger toward us because we have not acted on your behalf over Cyprus, because Atlanta got the Olympics in 1996 instead of Athens, and over similar issues that are trivial to us and not the product of any grand foreign policy conspiracies.
Other times people will blame the U.S. for the actions of anti-communist dictators who came to power during the Cold War. And as an American I'm willing to accept that accusation, if the accuser also recognizes that the hundreds or sometimes even thousands (i.e. Pinochet in Chile may have killed 3,000 leftists) killed by those dictators pales besides the numbers often killed when the U.S. did not sufficiently resist communist takeovers, (i.e. Cambodia with 1.5 million dead under the Khmer Rouge, China and Russia with tens of millions dead each). The U.S. was simply picking the least awful option.
Pinochet killed fewer than Castro, and built a democratic state to which he eventually surrendered control, and yet Europeans abducted him to be tried in Spain even as they continue to celebrate and support Fidel.
June 19, 2007 at 3:18 am #54042ParticipantBeing self absorbed from having enough things to keep your attention is true and I understand that.
I also understand not being interested in Europe when it comes to its inner dealings, that's logical too. But from a business standpoint, in a globalized economy it only makes sense from Europe to be interested in the USA and vice versa. I mean why wouldn't one big market do business with another big market?
But it's quite easy to explain an average European's fascination. Show business. As for the fact that we spend so much time paying attention to the US and we still get much wrong, well, that's inevitable too and it goes both ways. There are vast cultural differences and it takes an great amount of time to comprehend them both. And by the time we do, there are new things we have to understand.
I did not really mentioned the US interfering thinking of my country or anything related to it. I'm talking theory mostly. But since you went that way, I have some comments.
Of course you did not invent our problems. At worst you might have exacerbated some but that's about it. And yes I believe you interfered in fear of us joining the Soviet side. And yes had we joined our problems would have only gotten worse. But you 're wrong in one thing. There was no such great risk. And nope we did not really have long-term Soviet interference in Greece at that time. What we had is a centuries old friendship with Russia at a time the Soviet Union had not even be thought of. But Russia and the Soviet Union are two different things.
In the shape communism was trying to take, yes the United States were right in going up against it. I never objected to that. I never even questioned whether our participation in NATO was involuntary or not.
I won't try to mention what the US did wrong as this is not the point of this thread. My purpose is to learn more about you and, through that, maybe help you learn something about us. After all there is always something to learn. Hence I 'll only comment on the topics you bring up.
On to Cyprus. Believe me, we 're more pissed at the military junta than at you when it comes to Cyprus. If there is one thing we hold against you, is that you have yet to recognize the turkish military operations on Cyprus at that time as an invasion. It's more of an ethical matter really. Well that and that you supported the junta thinking they could keep us away from communism. The reality of things is that they were a bunch of idiots that created more problems than they solved, more so than any modern idiot that had the chance to become prime minister.
As for the Olympics, you 're seeing too much in things, I'm afraid. Yes we were disappointed to not get them in 1996 because that was the 100th anniversary of the first modern Olympics that were held in Greece. But I don't remember people holding that against you. I mean, it's not like you were picking the "winner" by yourselves. We were equally disappointed in 2000. But we don't have any problems with Australians.
In reality, interfering is not a problem by itself. What seems odd to us Europeans is the fact that you interfere even when you are not asked to, not by people, not by governments, not by anyone. Should anyone ask for your held and you think it's worth it, go with it. But why disregard what one country chooses for itself?
It's true that we are sympathetic towards Fidel Castro. But that's because we see the whole affair more like an underdog story. This might be naive, I give you that. But that's the reason an average European will claim to like Castro.
Closing, so that my purpose here is clear, the point is to learn from each other. I mean, you could make questions and I could make questions. There are differences and there will be differences. We live under different circumstances, he bear different legacies and it's only natural to be different. But we can always try to understand.
So isn't there any serious question you always to wanted to ask about an average European and never had the chance? I'm not saying I know every answer but why not try it out? I try to do the same thing and I assure you, I only mean well.
June 19, 2007 at 5:26 am #54043whitemott2004
ParticipantYap,
You've raised an interesting question. I've been fortunate enough to spend time in Europe and living in and extended stays in many areas of the United States so for what it's worth, here's my take in general.
Europeans seem to have a tendency to forget a few key things about the U.S. First amongst those is the country doesn't have a lengthy history. This is sometimes a boon and sometimes a bane to us. We don't have 2000 years of cultural mindsets or traditions to fall back on.
Additionally, I think many Europeans don't realize that the U.S. is in effect 50 different "countries." Each geographical region has a different mix of historical cultural influences, past immigrant populations, religious preferences, dialects (and sometimes languages) and overall mindsets. Europeans often make the mistake in business dealings to assume that California is the same as Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Florida, or even Utah.
As for interventions in other countries, we've pretty much vascillated between empire building to isolationism to our current political state. Keep in mind, foreign policy for most Americans is not a topic of dinner conversation. We're much more concerned about jobs, family, etc.
If you want to know why our foreign policies are so "unilateral" or don't mesh with what is perceived to be international interests is that often, international bodies and foreign countries don't have our interests at heart.
Keep in mind that in the 200 years of modern history of the U.S., we've been invaded by the British once and had our capital burned, ended up fighting in World War I, were attacked by the Japanese Empire for our trade policies and entered World War II, allowed the Soviet Union to annex half of Europe, fought a Cold War, and most recently (after having withdrawn most of our armed forced from the rest of the world) were attacked by terrorists.
In other words, even when we are "good," it doesn't help us avoid being attacked. I'm not a supporter of our current government's policies, but it's hard to explain to your average Joe working at the shop or plowing a field in Kansas that we should trust the world at large to look after us and work in our best interests. In other words, European pragmatism in foreign policy differs from what could be considered American pragmatism.
June 19, 2007 at 4:17 pm #54044ParticipantNice to get some perspective.
About us forgetting the US don't have a lengthy history, I believe you 're right, in a way. It's not exactly that we don't keep that in mind. We do and, to be honest, this seems to us like a source of ridicule. It's not the depth of your history and it has nothing to do with inferiority and superiority. But, I tell you, I could not wrap my head around the things I hear when you refer, for example, to feudal Japan as ancient Japan. What is ancient and what is not is something dictated by the scientific rules of history and we just don't understand how can anyone not get that. But I'm wandering off again.
In your arguments defense, in the middle of a conversation or a heated argument, judging from myself, I think you 're right that we don't take into account the depth of your history. We should as that is a defining factor for any country. Maybe we fail to do that because of being used to dealing with our neighbouring countries, with the mightier of which we actually go back quite some time.
You 're also right that there are bound to be great regional differences within a country. We get this in Greece as well and the whole country is smaller than a state of yours. It's similar to any country though. So we get as far as this in our logic. But we clearly have no idea what these regional differences are in your case. I know have no idea and I have yet to meet someone around here that has.
So could you provide some examples? And is there a source you'd recommend for to read on the matter, covering most if not all states and their differences?
Going on, I truly could never imagine that your average citizens don't really care about foreign policy. Having been raised the way I have, that seems unthinkable to me for various reason, not the least of which is being at odds (politically mainly) with Turkey for, well, centuries. I don't really know if interest in foreign policy should be demanded today but I get the feeling it should be more and more in the spotlight in the days of a significantly more global economy.
And on to the next point. So it's perceived that international bodies and foreign countries don't have your interests at heart? This is on tough cookie. First of all, ridiculous to expect something like that. In any place with two or more voices a disagreement at some point is a certain possibility.
As with any disagreement if all parties mean well, they will eventually get out of it. Regrettably most of the time the two or more sides don't mean well, mainly because they don't want to realize what their place is and get greedy or end up with an overly inflated ego. So I guess that justifies some of your stances. But this has to change eventually, for you and everyone else as a matter of fact. Especially in dealings that are just a matter of logic and someone always shows up to mess them up, no matter who that is.
And by the way, since when being "good" shields anyone from anything? I really wish it worked that way.
June 21, 2007 at 10:38 am #54045David
ParticipantIt's funny that we don't have as long a history to fall back on our government is one of the longest lasting.
I think in the U.S. our self absorption has lead to many misconceptions. We talked about France not standing behind us but they and Germany only stepped back when we went after Iraq and not Afghanistan's Taliban. Both have worked with NATO there.
I think that a lot of the US's misconception about the rest of the world results from our ignorance of that outside world. The media feeds us hours of reports on pseudo-celebrities and 30 second blurbs about a riot in France or a train crash in Japan. Rarely do we get in-depth reporting on other countries unless it has something to do directly with the U.S.June 21, 2007 at 9:19 pm #54046cpbell0033944
ParticipantIt's funny that we don't have as long a history to fall back on our government is one of the longest lasting.
I think in the U.S. our self absorption has lead to many misconceptions. We talked about France not standing behind us but they and Germany only stepped back when we went after Iraq and not Afghanistan's Taliban. Both have worked with NATO there.
I think that a lot of the US's misconception about the rest of the world results from our ignorance of that outside world. The media feeds us hours of reports on pseudo-celebrities and 30 second blurbs about a riot in France or a train crash in Japan. Rarely do we get in-depth reporting on other countries unless it has something to do directly with the U.S.Interesting to hear a US citizen confirming my suspicions. The whole "freedom fries" affair was, IMO, an extreme example of this.
June 22, 2007 at 2:00 am #54047JimmyDimples
ParticipantHmmm. I hadn't realized that Germany had any troops in Afghanistan until I'd seen a DW documentary on Hong Kong's channel ATV World. I doubt that the press back home in the USA would've covered that immediately.
But press-wise, I think that's the same story the whole world over. In my journalism classes in college, my professor told me that one death in your hometown is worth 1000 deaths in a foreign country. That's pretty much how it operates in Hong Kong, Australia, and other communities… I don't hear a lot on what goes on back in Mayberry meself 'round here.
(Then again, when I watch the news out of Hong Kong, any reports that cast the mainland gum'mint in a bad light tend to get dubbed out by a loop of PSAs in Cantonese… but that's another story.)
June 22, 2007 at 6:38 am #54048ParticipantYap,
I probably shouldn't discuss the dynamics of American culture late in the evening but I think that the biggest problem most Europeans and foreigners in general have in trying to understand the United States is that it is unique in many respects.
We're schizophrenic in our attitudes as a whole but the world sees one government. When I refer to American's general lack of interest or discussion regarding world politics or foreign policy, it's not so much that we don't care as it is that it's not possible. I'm going to upset quite a few people with this comment but it's one thing I've had some chuckles over with friends of mine.
Americans typically work extremely long hours. A 60-75 hour work week is average for me and my college educated friends. By the time we attend to familial affairs, we really don't care to get hot and heavy into hard issues. If I have four hours on the weekend, friends will go golfing, discuss local politics (local as in our local state which affects approximatley 30 million people). We know our individual state's issues but I'll be honest that I have no idea what issues Wyoming or Texas is facing at the moment.
National foreign policy is well, foreign to most Americans. It's run out of a city that most people will at best, visit once in their life. Foreign policy is run by the President and his various advisors. We may agree with it on occassion but more often, the majority of people in the country don't approve of our president. However, we operate in a republican form of government where the executive branch does not change except every 4 years (maybe). Our last presidential election, like the one before, was almost evenly split.
Frankly, we also have a saying here in my region. There are two things you don't discuss; politics and religion.
I do believe that many Americans are uninformed, by choice or by accident of ignorance, of the outside world. However, we have many, many people who are quite well informed of what is going on outside of our borders and may surprise you with the depth of their understanding. The basis as to why this is so is still one that we don't fully comprehend. I doubt you can find a truly accurate answer though.
June 22, 2007 at 6:46 am #54049KeymasterDiplomacy is for wankers.
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