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The Saint.
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December 27, 2007 at 9:39 am #65174
The Saint
ParticipantOn average, would you say that femuscle stories — be they FMG, lift & carry, wrestling or scissor stories — are more valued when they're actually plotted and structured, or more valued when they're simply an extended 'scene' of the given fetish with a setup and a minimal denouement?
December 27, 2007 at 3:53 pm #65175Fonk
ParticipantHaving tried to write both, I have to say that I much prefer doing – and reading! – something which is plotted and structured. I think it gets the reader more involved if you are introduced to a character and watch them change, and then how other people react, etc.
December 27, 2007 at 4:31 pm #65176
AlexGKeymasterOn average, would you say that femuscle stories — be they FMG, lift & carry, wrestling or scissor stories — are more valued when they're actually plotted and structured, or more valued when they're simply an extended 'scene' of the given fetish with a setup and a minimal denouement?
Kinda hard to say. My opinion has been, at least these days, that most of the audience prefers shorter works – short-shorts or novellas, over that of the novel format. Partly, its due to shorter attention spans, and the fact that most of the few who have the innate talent for good writing don't have the free time (and/or energy) create a longer work.
Second, or so its been my observation, many of those that have plugged a pen at writing a story get off to a good start, but never finish their work. Why? My guess is that they prefer to focus on the "good stuff" because its part of a erotic fantasy expressed in text and thus it comes very easily – but once they've complete that portion of the program they don't have a clue as where to take the characters next.
“I like a good story well told. That is the reason I am sometimes forced to tell them myself.”
~ Mark Twain / Samuel Clemens (1907)December 27, 2007 at 6:40 pm #65177stmercy2020
ParticipantAlthough I think most people who would answer this kind of question would probably tell you they prefer plotted and structured stories, recent evidence seems to suggest pretty much the opposite. I personally have two- no, three- stories that are essentially chapter stories and- while they've been reasonably well-received- they get very few comments or views when compared to the shorter, self-contained stories and vignettes I've done.
I would also note that if you are thinking of writing a longer story and posting it a bit at a time-or as you complete each chapter- something that may help you to maintain interest would be to set some sort of dramatic goal for each chapter. Think of it like plotting a serial television show; there's enough going on in each episode to keep new readers interested, and enough carry-over that long-time readers start to see the over-arching plot develop.
I think that in many cases AlexG is correct about why so many stories never get finished; if you're writing a story out of a desire for a vicarious sexual thrill, then the moment of climax is pretty much what the 'story' is about, and anything after is a waste of effort. I would add that I think a number of authors get frustrated by the apparent apathy that seems to go hand-in-hand with the ease of point-and-click reading; readers can, with just a few clicks, visit a story, read what they like, and click away without ever being inconvenienced or feeling any impetus to leave a comment. When we- authors- see that our stories have been viewed X-many times and received 2 comments, we get discouraged and decide that our time can be spent more profitably in other endeavors.
December 28, 2007 at 3:23 am #65178demented20
ParticipantThere is a place for both types of stories, but I have to agree that most people go for the extended scene type stories over the plotted ones. Most people who come online want a quick read, nothing more and nothing less, and I can respect that. But there is a trade off.
Not every idea for a story needs a long drawn out plot, or to be stretched out into multiple chapters. A good well written story that hits all the right notes, so to speak, will usually get people's attention and get a lot of views and comments.
Anybody who has read my stories knows that I've taken the opposite approach. I tend to write 10-12 page or longer plotted stories that are all serially connected. And to make things worse, now I'm trying to weave together the plots and storylines of 3 separate series.
It's taken a while for me to establish good characters, a world with villians and good guys, and the whole nine yards. It was worth it to me because I always thought that if I kept writing pretty decent stuff that more people would want to read it. I'm never going to be the #1 top guy with the most views(well some days I am :), and I'm cool with that. But like said, there's a trade off.
I love positive feedback as much as the next author, but I have gotten my fair share of angry e-mails. I have gotten e-mails where people have called me names because of something I have done to one of my characters. I smile the whole time I'm reading the e-mail because I know whoever wrote that e-mailed cared. That person cared enough about my fictional character to take the time to write me and fuss. To me it doesn't get any better than that.
December 28, 2007 at 3:37 am #65179ParticipantWell, when I talk about a fully structured and plotted story, I don't necessarily mean a novel, or even a novella — a work of any length can have a fully developed plot. I use the Blake Snyder method, which was developed for feature films but the essentials of which apply, really, to any good story. It is as follows:
1. Opening Image: This is the "before" in the "before and after", our very first glimpse of the world our readers are to see.
2. Theme Stated: Pretty self-explanatory, someone usually actually says in so many words what the story is about, and usually says it to or in the presence of a main character.
3. Setup: An expanded version of our opening image and how our main character/s fit into it. This is where we usually introduce the Big Problem faced by our main character/s.
4. Catalyst: The message or event that ignites our main character/s need to solve the Big Problem, Right Now — sometimes by introducing an even BIGGER Big Problem which arises from the previous one.
5. Debate: Where our main character/s have to decide whether he/she/they can and/or should go on the adventure to solve the Big Problem.
6. Break Into 2 (Act 2 — remember, this was originally conceived for screenplays): This is where our main character/s make that decision.
7. B Story: A change of pace, usually lighter in tone than our A story, where the main character/s meet someone who imparts (to the reader if not to the main character himself) a new perspective on the overall story.
8: Fun & Games: The meat of the story. In film, this is where the "trailer scenes" come from; in the femdom/femuscle genre, this is where most of the "scene" takes place, be it wrestling, L&C, FMG, whatever. Most — not all.
9. Midpoint. Exactly halfway in the middle of the story — the main character/s either enjoy a major (though not final) victory here or a crushing (but not permanent) defeat.
10. Bad Guys Close In: Whether literally (opposing forces LITERALLY getting physically closer to our main character/s) or figuratively (conflict between main character/s or main character/s and supporting friendly characters)
11. All Is Lost: This is a definitive defeat for the main character/s. It should APPEAR to be complete, absolute and total defeat. The best All Is Lost moments include, in some way, the "Whiff of Death" — death of a character, a goal or an idea doesn't matter. SOMETHING either external or internal to our main character/s must die here.
12: Dark Night Of The Soul: Our defeated main character/s come to fully understand their defeat in this section. This is where all hope has been lost, the main character/s know it and we must suffer this knowledge with them here.
13: Break Into 3: Something is said to or remembered by our main character/s which recalls what they were told in Theme Stated. The main character/s get their second wind from this.
14: Finale: This is generally your second major action section. Armed with the renewed inspiration of Theme Stated and tempered with wisdom gained through All Is Lost and Dark Night Of The Soul, our main character/s now get to kick ass and take names.
15: Final Image: The "After" in the "Before and After" — should simultaneously be similar to and diametrically opposite of Opening Image.December 28, 2007 at 4:22 am #65180ParticipantHmm you mean all this time there was a method!!! I had to try to figure most of that stuff out by trial an error 😉
That list leaves off one important point. 'Know your audience'. You have to give your readers something of what they want. If you don't, it doesn't matter how clever the plot is, or how well crafted it is. The work is destined to be a well written coaster, an internet coaster, but a coaster nonetheless.
Knowing your audience also means controlling length. The folks on the internet didn't fork over $10 for a movie ticket or $30 for a hard cover. They have no vested interest in reading your work. You have to give them that, and take into account that most people on the net have slightly shorter attention spans than a fruit fly.
December 28, 2007 at 4:58 am #65181ParticipantYep, and that's where your title and log line come in. Those are a whole 'nother monster, though. 🙂 Grabbing your readers is actually pretty easy, especially in a small, specialized market like this one. Nailing down who your audience is really isn't that hard when your audience is maybe a million or two, maximum. Once you have them, though, once you get them to Page 1, keeping them with you all the way to the end is the trick.
The "scene" part, though, is just the sizzle. Now it's true that the sizzle is all some folks want — but give them a little steak with it and pretty soon they'll feel cheated if the sizzle is all they get. 😉
December 28, 2007 at 5:57 am #65182Robert McNay
ParticipantFor me, a story needs to be a "story", it has to make me want to read more or learn more about the character. I like a progression and purpose to it, if it's part of something larger (a series, world, an epic) all the better.
The biggest nit I have to pick is the types of characters some writers populate their stories with. I have to actually like or find something redeeming in a character to enjoy a story. So many female muscle stories contain nothing but a whole cast that should just be lined up in front of a wall and shot. The guy will be a total sleeze trying to take advantage of the woman in some way. The woman will be complete psychotic who loves to torture men or she'll literally get off on killing people. Or worse.
The best example of this was a story that was posted to the femuscle story Usenet group. It concerned a total jerk of a guy who comes up with a muscle growth formula that needed lillies and protein to work. His girlfriend steals it from him and proceeds to hold him captive and torture him forever. She also gives it to her younger sister and she participates. Everyone in the story was so morally bankrupt, that I can't describe how lousy I felt. I needed a mental bath to wash it out of my head. 😛
December 28, 2007 at 6:25 am #65183ParticipantFor me, a story needs to be a "story", it has to make me want to read more or learn more about the character. I like a progression and purpose to it, if it's part of something larger (a series, world, an epic) all the better.
The biggest nit I have to pick is the types of characters some writers populate their stories with. I have to actually like or find something redeeming in a character to enjoy a story. So many female muscle stories contain nothing but a whole cast that should just be lined up in front of a wall and shot. The guy will be a total sleeze trying to take advantage of the woman in some way. The woman will be complete psychotic who loves to torture men or she'll literally get off on killing people. Or worse.
The best example of this was a story that was posted to the femuscle story Usenet group. It concerned a total jerk of a guy who comes up with a muscle growth formula that needed lillies and protein to work. His girlfriend steals it from him and proceeds to hold him captive and torture him forever. She also gives it to her younger sister and she participates. Everyone in the story was so morally bankrupt, that I can't describe how lousy I felt. I needed a mental bath to wash it out of my head. 😛
Yep, that's usually the biggest irritant I find in others' work (aside from one thing* I'll address in a moment) — the reason most internet readers won't read more than 2 to 3 pages of any given writer's characters is that, sorry guys, most internet writers' characters are cardboard cutouts.
Every "good guy" has to have one very bad thing, or several moderately bad things — that get fixed by the end of the story. Every "bad guy" has to have at least one mildly redeeming quality, be it a witty sense of humor, a weaker character he protects loyally, or whatever. At the very least, give the bad guy a reason to think he's the good guy. Make your readers make friends with your characters, put their new friends into some interesting circumstances, and the readers will stay to see how their new friends make out.
*The one thing, the single biggest problem with internet writers, is that most of them are simply inept when it comes to the basics: spelling, punctuation and grammar. Yes, I am a spelling and grammar nazi. I make no bones about it and no apologies. Every writer who takes his or her work seriously is one — period. If you've got even one single excuse for not presenting yourself and your work with professionalism, why bother presenting it at all?
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