[cpbell0033944]

Diplomacy is for wankers.

So, was Churchill an onanist, then?  "Better jaw-jaw than war-war" was one of his quotes.

[Lu]

Churchill was ginger.
That's all I really have to add here I apologise 😀

[cpbell0033944]

Churchill was ginger.

That's true…bad example. 🙁

[Yaponvezos]

Masschine made quite the interesting point about today’s media I believe. I don’t know about the rest of the world but as far as my country goes, less and less journalist actually care about journalism. The field is a mess and I truly have to go through to much myself just to get informed in what I see as a moderately safe way. It’s my personal habit to cross check everything and I get furious, more often than not, for the way media around the world treat viewers, listeners, readers and what have you. As it seems then, this might be a more universal problem than I initially thought. It’s somewhat funny in a sadistic kind of way too. I got to learn in the 11th grade that it’s one’s responsibility to keep his view of things separate from the facts. Of course one can comment and express any opinion that he may have, as long as he has made sure first that the public has been presented the cold sterile fact.

And since cpbell0033944 brought the “freedom fries” thing up, I think it would be interesting to tell you how some people reacted to that. At first quite some thought it was quite ridiculous and funny as an idea. But going over that some got to see more to it (whether that’s false or correct is an issue of course). By the way some (emphasis on “some”) Americans seem to use or refer to the word “freedom” and everything it means a bit arrogantly, in a sense that only America knows what it is and how it can be obtained. If that’s truly the way some thing of freedom, I can only find it to be sad and insulting to every civilization that ever existed.

FrankiesUncle, I absolutely understand. It’s impossible for us to not be occupied with your government’s decision as they influence a good part of the world, due to your country’s potition of power in a whole lot of fields. I don’t automatically resent the fact that you are in such a position. Even if you weren’t someone else would be in your shoes, so to speak. We, Greeks, have been monumentally stupid in several cases throughout our history in various cases, harming ourselves and sometimes many more.

And if most of you work such long hours, I agree that, in your little free time, you will avoid getting into such topics. I ‘ve felt the same. I’m a freelancer and don’t have the luxury of working certain hours day in day out. I’ve even kept typing 18 hours straight and after that I wasn’t able to understand a single word from anyone.

You have to realize thought, I don’t hold a grudge to the average American citixen. After all he has the right to lead a life the way he wants. I ‘m not even bothered by the ones that have no idea about on thing or the other. What always gets me thought is people not knowing a damn thing, either acting like they do or acting like, if they don’t, I must not either. That logical flaw has nothing to do with Americans. It has everything to do with humans and education. So in the end I feel we ‘re dealing with matters of universal magnitude and of perception.

I personally oppose anyone that is quick to insult random citizens. What are the chances that most ordinary people are actually in on government decisions?

I’d like to ask something else as well. There is the feeling in our part of the world that since the various terrorist attacks, the average American’s sense of safety has diminished hence the overly defensive attitude of some. Is this true or are we talking about a false impression?

And if it is true, how do you feel about it exactly? I mean where I live trespassing Turkish fighter jets are part of hour defensive routine. And since I want to be fair, it’s not that we ‘re not doing the same to them. It’s more like a peaceful cockfight. Sometimes it gets more than that but most of the time it doesn’t. What I try to say is that we are actually used to it to some degree, meaning that we don’t wonder if it’ll happen, we know it will. Therefore we’re not feeling insecure. Where we really feel insecure is in the diplomatic field since there is lot of interest in the region for various reasons and, when coupled with the occasional diplomatic gaffe from our part, it’s easier then we’d like to suffer great economical and strategic consequences.
I’m not sure every European feels the same as he happen to be at the edge of Europe, politically, economically AND geographically. Plus we ‘ve had Muslim neighbours and/or partners for centuries and we know what to expect.

It so annoys me that my english is not good enough to get the Churchill joke…

[cpbell0033944]

The Churchill quote wasn't a joke, actually.  He used "jaw-jaw" to mean diplomatic efforts because it formed a rhyming couplet with the word "war" – hence it means "Better to solve problems by talking than by waging war."

[Lu]

If you mean the ginger thing, then it's because the English don't like gingers much. You may call them 'redheads', but it's not ginger.

(That, and I watched that 'F*** Off I'm Ginger' the other day, they make a good point that ginger haired Churchill had one world war, dark haired Hitler had zero world wars)

[Yaponvezos]

Yep, I was talking about the ginger comment. Thanks for clarifying.

[Lingster]

Yaponvezos – prior to September, 2001, Continental U.S. territory had not been significantly intruded upon (not including the Civil War) since August, 1814, when the British burned Washington.

There's not much sense in the U.S. that we have any obligation to tolerate that kind of thing.  Frankly, a lot of us thought we should have incinerated Afghanistan to the last village, with nuclear weapons, just to make an object lesson of them.  But Bush chose conventional interventions, probably to his regret.

The determined opposition of Europe to every U.S. foreign policy move since 9/11 means that next time we'll probably just nuke the fuckers.  (Iran, for example, is so eager to have nuclear weapons that the temptation to give them some might prove irresistible.)

In case you don't know, I was there that morning.  I was one of the last people to pass through the basement and concourse levels of the World Trade Center.  My rage over the event is extraordinary – it's the purest, most intense thing I've ever felt.  It's been almost six years and I still think about the World Trade Center every day.

I'm not ever going to forgive what happened on 9/11 – and there are probably 100 million other Americans who feel pretty much the same way.  So whether you know it or not, there is a cohort of Americans that is just as resolute and angry as the worst jihadists.  We're just a lot more patient.

[Yaponvezos]

I understand your rage is justifiable. I did not know you were actually there but even if you weren't, I can't support anything that takes people's lives unless it's actually a desperate defensive move. Obviously that attack wasn't such a move. And I'm not saying you have some kind of obligation to tolerate such things. I'm only wondering if the fact that intrusions have been so rare for you, you might get more easily pissed. Intrusion should not be tolerated of course. We don't tolerate that either. But there is a time that one realizes the said intrusions, regardless of their frequency or severity, are inevitable. It's sad but true. And if we let (by "we" I mean anyone and everyone) let anger rise over reason, we 're just making things worse.

For example I don't see why every single Afghani should be killed for what happened. It's not like the whole Afghanistan crashed into the towers. Of course the ones responsible have to pay in some way but everyone else should be spared. Justice and revenge are rarely the same thing I'm afraid. The same goes for what is legal and what is right.

As far as european opposition to american foreign policy goes, from my point of view, we don't oppose you enough in some things. We 're not saying some action you take is not justifiable. We just think it's not the right way to act. It's mainly a difference in philosophy. We 've been through many more wars and we won't be getting into one easily, let alone provide support to anyone that wishes to wage war. Despite that fact, Europe has provided support. Maybe not as much as you 'd like but I feel it's still more than you should get. From us you can take anything that helps survivors and families of the deceased feel or live better and whatever could help bring the guilty to justice. Help in waging a war in which, even if you win, it will be difficult for you to tell if you 've really won? Not so much.

On the nuclear weaponry, I just can't get your fixation on Iran. Anyone having nuclear weapons should be ridiculous and unacceptable by default. But you, having all sorts of nuclear weaponry, asking others to back off is so illogical it's almost funny. And since that's what you want really, please stop pretending you want everyone to back off in order to preserve peace. This is just diplomacy of the worst order. And as you put it earlier, I'll agree that, occasionally at least, especially such diplomacy really is for wankers.

Once again, I plea for you to understand thought that this is not a thread for these matters to be discussed. The point is to exchange views on each other, trying to understand, as well as anyone can, why we are at odds and hopefully work something out sooner rather than later. Surely you can see I'm trying to understand. What saddens me a bit is that, so far, I'm the only one asking questions. And if anyone feels I've been overly offensive, insensitive, non sensical or ill-natured in any way, please do say so as this is definitely not my intention.

[Lingster]

We used nuclear weapons in 1945, and then not once since.  Which is probably part of the problem, because now everyone thinks we never will.  Afghanistan would have been the perfect object lesson.  Its main exports are opium, rugs and crazy.  Almost nothing of useful value comes from there.

The only thing that keeps the peace is fear.  The world ought to fear us more – the United States ought to be acting more like an empire and less like a big Switzerland.  I honestly have no idea why there are still inmates at Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay.  It's been years, and every single one of them ought to have been released or hanged by now.

It doesn't need to be fair when we tell Iran not to have nukes (although even that objection is insane, btw).  The world isn't fair.  The people of the United States don't want Iran to have nukes and that's all the reason anybody needs, because we can back it up.

[Author]

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