[Lingster]

And in case people aren't clear on this, Iran declared war on the United States in 1979 and has never done anything to indicate that it has changed our status as a belligerent.  Iran is waging war against the United States at this very moment – shipping bombs and covert operatives into Afghanistan and Iraq to kill U.S. soldiers.

It is insane for us to allow this to go on, and it would be even more insane for us to allow Iran to acquire nukes.  I would rather see Iran destroyed than to see it possess nuclear weapons.  And since we're pulling from ancient history, let me say Persia delenda est.

[cpbell0033944]

Lingster said:

Much of Europe has had to do very little to protect itself for the last 60 years because the U.S. has done it for them.

Wrong (or at least mostly wrong).  Whilst it's true that the US has had a significant military presence in Western Europe since WWII (I should know; I live no more than 40 miles from the USAF bases in Suffolk that regularly send all sorts of US fighters over my village on training sorties), the primary factors in the protection of Europe have been the UN, NATO and the EU.  Lingster's probably snorting at my mention of the EU, but at least while they're sitting in an enormous Parliament building arguing over how straight or curved cucumbers are supposed to be (yes, there really was a debate about the curviness of cucumbers), they're not posturing for war as happened in the 1910-1914 period or from c.1935 until 1st September 1939.  Unfortunately, Lingster's point that

Real power in this world is represented by the ability to project military force and generate or control trade.

is correct, but for the US to behave as a self-appointed global bogeyman from whom every other nation cowers in abject terror lest the bogeyman flex his military bicep and blow them off the face of the planet is arrogance of the most extreme kind.  I really do have deep sympathy for Lingster's hatred of the events of 9/11 – I watched the horror unfold live on TV and was appalled, stunned and enraged.  I still think that those who perpetrated it and those who inspired them are and were the lowest form of life possible, but, given that Afghanis were held by the Taliban in exactly the same terror as Lingster advocates as a role for the US, his suggestion that Bush should have ordered the nuking of Afghanistan to make a political point is insensitive and downright monstrous.  The US didn't care one bit about Afghani women being beaten, stoned and killed for showing their faces in public or demanding an education before 9/11, yet Lingster is saying that, because the US was attacked, it should have responded by killing those same women, most of whom would not have died instantly but who would have died in the most awful, inhuman, pain-wracked and degrading way imaginable.  

If any country thinks that the US will never use nukes again, then they're misguided, especially whilst Dubya remains President.  He's itching to nuke Iran, based mainly on their possession of nuclear weapons (allegedly), but using the fact that Iranian mercenaries are killing coalition (yes, British and Canadian as well as American) troops
in Iraq and Afghanistan.  The major reason, IMO for the need to fight simultaneously in both Afghanistan and Iraq is the failure of the coalition to fully rid Afghanistan of Taliban and Iranian mercenaries before invading Iraq. 

As to Lingster's assertion that Governments don't make the world a better place, well, how does he explain the fact that Theodore Rooseveldt's pioneering reforms of business, solving of miner's disputes and foundation in the US of the principle of keeping the nation's geological and natural wonders free of development (he stopped building in the Grand Canyon, for Pete's sake)?  Just because they don't always succeed, doesn't mean that they cannot do so if they set their minds to it.

I'm going to withdraw from this thread now, lest I write something that leads to my membership being terminated.  Suffice it to say, I couldn't disagree with Lingster's opinions on this topic more.

[Yaponvezos]

Who said anything about engineering people? And why does it always have to be about communim? I 'm not saying what a government should do. I "m sayin what I believe a person should do.

And the Peloponnesian War comments refer to logic behind actions. The fact that you try to make any kind of point by noting whether there is an rival power or not is irrelevant to this conversation.

Glad to see you resorted to the word "order" instead of peace. At least it's far closer to the truth. And if you thing that only those with the biggest guns can be taken seriously well…I can't take this comment as anything but immature. Again history proves you wrong. Oh and the notion that ancient Athens was analogically weak because of the lack of nuclear submarines is laughable. Everything should be judged in the proper context you know.

Since you seem determined to take arrogance to a stratospheric level by saying that even when handipped the US can face ANY league of countries, you just end up showing you 're on a serious power trip. So if there is no one league of countries to look you in they eye, I'm obliged to assume, according to your claims, that should the whole world turn against you, you 'd come up victorious or lose and nuke the whole planet. Come on, just imagine what would happen if the Chinese would just WALK towards you or anyone for that matter.

And you 'd rather see Iran destroyed than to see it possess nuclear weapons? Do you even realise most of this planet's countries could say the same about your country? And then what? Nukes all over the place? How…juvenile. This saddens me a great deal. I'm not even going to use the civilization argument as you clearly to rate it high enough to even bother with it.

In my language, the word for human means "the one that raises his gaze to the sky/heavens". This word is the reason I refuse to give up hope on any person. This word is why seeing people cling to the past when nothing good can get out of it infuriates me. This word is the reason some of your views sadden me so much, you probably can't comprehend.

In the end, I can only try and set an example. You can try to do the same and whatever goes down, goes down.

[Lingster]

The analogy for nuclear submarines would be a retaliatory return strike capability that could survive any initial attack.  No one has ever had that before.  The Athenians certainly didn't.  See, the U.S. nuclear submarine fleet carries enough warheads to level any foe or collection of foes.  So even if mainland defenses, the air force and surface navy were destroyed, there'd still be the submarine force, waiting quietly beneath the waves.

Still, if the Chinese started walking toward us they would shortly drown.  If the Pacific Ocean froze over to allow them to walk over it they would shortly starve.  That's the thing – we have thousands of miles of ocean between us and any potential threat.  We're as close to unassailable as any country has ever been.  When the U.S. goes down it will be because we've been nuked or because we've succumbed to internal division.  Invasion won't have anything to do with it.

Deep down, people are not all the same.  Deep down, people are not all good.  I believe that man is ugly and corrupt, and people who believe otherwise are naive.  That's why I believe in limited government – so that no one man or collection of men has total power.  And despite my distrust of the U.S. Government, I look around the world and see that it is head and shoulders above nearly all the rest.

The UN is a nest of dictators and kleptocrats, and the EU is gigantic bureaucracy not answerable to the citizens of its member countries.  Both are feckless.  You say there's a better way, but we're at the high water mark in human development, right now, and that's largely the result of an international system developed by the U.S. and its WW2 allies, and enforced by the U.S. ever since.

[Yaponvezos]

Distortion, distortion, distortion. Did I say that all people are all good? No. Did you act like I did? Yes. Did I say everyone's the same? No. Did you act like I did? Yes. Is it that difficult for you to actually comment on what I really say? I regret to say it seems so.  But if you think you, yourself, as a man, are ugly and corrupt from the get go, I'm glad. Firstly because I won't have to prove it if I ever think I should and secondly because I find it funny that you attach to your nature vices you consider reasons for extinction in the case of others. If that's not ironic, I don't know what is.

I see you 're being cute with the Chinese. So you either did not understand me or you act like you didn't. In both cases, that's not a compliment to you. And all those miles of sea protecting you did nothing to prevent 9/11.

Your comments about the UN? Hilarious. The UN will never function as intended as long as there is the security council. It made sense 60 years ago, but it does not now. Plus the UN's formation was your idea all along. A nice one back then but you made it what it is today and bothers you so much.

Yes, the European Union struggles with bureaucracy. At least we 're not staging wars. You know why? Because we 've actually seen it outside our homes more times than enough. You haven't had that misfortune hence you feel you can afford feeling indestructible. That is exactly why 9/11 hurt the country and not only the people it killed.

Eventually you will understand. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. Anyone throughout history that thought he had everything in order had the worst of fates. It's time you learnt something from it and avoid similar mistakes. Broadening your perception and view of things won't hurt you, you know.

[Lingster]

Yes, the European Union struggles with bureaucracy. At least we 're not staging wars. You know why?

Because you've used up your quota?

[whitemott2004]

Yap,

I think what you are experiencing is exactly what happens in the U.S. everytime politics comes up with respect to America and the rest of the world.  This conversation, in one form or another, has existed for over 200 years. 

I have no doubt the Europeans will see a drawback of American military, diplomatic, and trade policies in the coming decades.  Some will see it as a good thing, others won't.  Regardless, someone else is going to have to pony up the cash and dead bodies to try to make sure a few hundred thousand people aren't killed in a genocide. 

You'll also see a lot less American assistance as well. 

With respect to 9/11, I actually agree with Lingster on this one.  Most people in the days afterwards felt that a million acre parking lot needed to be placed between Iran and Pakistan.  Calmer heads (ironically viewed as being the warmongers) prevailed and we now find ourselves in a ground war with a bunch of uneducated rednecks willing to blow themselves and anyone else near them to pieces in order to kill the infidels. 

Ironically, we're compared to the Roman Empire by many historians.  If that be the case, then I'm for the decimation of any village where an American is killed.  The Romans, if you remember, traveled freely through the Empire.  If a Roman was killed in a village, they killed every 10th person in that village.  Obviously, we don't stoop to that level despite having the ability to do so.

I live in an area of the country where there are hundreds of thousands of Arabs and Muslims (no, they are not necessarily the same thing).  Great people.  Left their homes to come here because they know they have a chance here.  I just don't care personally for rallies being conducted where a crowd of thousands jeers and burns an American flag.  How revolted would the rest of the world be if Americans did that?  Hell, the British can't knight someone who wrote a book about Islam or publish cartoons without threats of violence. 

We're different than the Europeans.  Not better; not worse.  Just different. 

Are some of us arrogant?  You're darn right.  We've mashed one hell of a country together in 200 years.  Our country is built on a population that either was kicked out of their home countries or left because they couldn't stand it at home.  Why are we required to apologize about it?  We have good and we have bad but like I said, if anyone else in the world wants to stand up and lay out the cash and dead bodies… be our friggin' guest because I'm fairly tired of seeing my friends coming back in body bags.

[Richard]

Just a minor clarification The Idea of the U.N was conceived and spearheaded by Lester B Pierson the Prime Minister of Canada. You may be thinking of the League of Nations that was the Idea of Woodrow Wilson an American President.

[Lingster]

Oh, good Christ, let's not talk about Woodrow Wilson.  Self-righteous clown.

[JimmyDimples]

FrankiesUncle… nuthin' but lurve, but I gotta hold you to task on some remarks you made:

… and we now find ourselves in a ground war with a bunch of uneducated rednecks willing to blow themselves and anyone else near them to pieces in order to kill the infidels.

My USMC cousin and my National Guard younger brother (who helped mop up in Kuwait after Operation Desert Storm) would be less than appreciative of that remark.  >:(

They're EDUCATED rednecks, thank you very much.

We have good and we have bad but like I said, if anyone else in the world wants to stand up and lay out the cash and dead bodies… be our friggin' guest because I'm fairly tired of seeing my friends coming back in body bags.

I feel you on that.  But mind you, that was common attitude back before 1942.  Lots of folks thinking, let those fools across the oceans blow themselves to Kingdom Come.  It's not affecting us.  But one statesman, Churchill, I think, made an argument that if we didn't step up and pitch into the war effort, our enemies would be making a grab for us before too long.  And if we let Africa, Asia, and Europe fall, we'd have had to fight regardless.  Only THEN, America would've been outnumbered ten to one.

Same deal today vs. the terrorists.  We let this thistle grow full size instead of chopping it up when it first sprouted.  Now we've gotta weed 'em out before they take over ALL the garden.

Oh, and as far as letting another nation be the earth's emergency number to dial… and I honestly write this with all due respect to the other citizens of the world:  who do you wanna nominate?  :-

[Author]

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