[Vollar-Tile]

I'm not anti-comedy, but this thread is about how to take buff superwomen seriously.

But I think we're focused on also getting her liked by the crowd more than 'respected' right? There's a number of male and female characters out there that are respected… but nobody gives a damn about or outright hate (current Supergirl again at the top of the list).

I like Slott's approach much better than Byrne's if only because Shulkie breaking the "fourth wall" made the stories essentially irrelavant in the Marvel Universe. But Slott sets a tone of "light adventure" that works against she hulk a little. The "World Without A Hulk" arc was supposed to show shulkie able to handle Hulk level threats like the Abomination and Wendigo. The result? Abomination is "stupided"down so she can trick him, plus she has an assist from Iron Prick. Meanwhile, up against Wendigo, Shulkie gets another assist from Mr. Overexposed Wolverine to take him down.

But she threw Wolverine THROUGH the Wendigo. THROUGH him, without being mad. Pretty high level feat there. I can't remember the last character able to do that level of damage to him. That and I found the "fastball special" conversation and the Juggernaut freakout hilarious.

On the World Without a Hulk thing (that was about the court-trial dealie right?), I rather enjoyed him going a different direction with things. Seems like every superhero around when they have a story like that, are important because they were able to save the universe somehow in a way that supposedly nobody else could. Instead it focused on how she brought many lives together instead of being yet another world/galaxy/universal savior.

What happened to the muscles? Early on, Slott established that if Jen went to the gym to buff out (even little girly muscles) She Hulk would get progressively stronger. She should be able to take out Hulk level threats on her own with no assist from male heroes. But that would go against the "comedy" wouldn't it? I think too much comedy makes She Hulk harmless. And NO hulk should ever be harmless.

Comedy doesn't really affect the status of a character in my opinion. Deadpool's a comedic nutjob, but that seems to help his situation. Spiderman's pretty hilarious himself. And it's not like she's ever gotten into anime-level antics. Speaking of which, numbers ofanime-styled characters go through just that, but it never affects their view as far I know.

At the end of the day, she was still easily stronger than Hercules for a time, took down Champion, threw wolverine THROUGH Wendigo, and took down a Thanos clone that was manhandling "Stargod" or whatever his name was.

And I think it's just an artist's interpretation. Some people draw Powergirl buff, some don't. Some draw Shulkie buff, some don't, etc, etc. Heck, sometimes, Hulk is 7-8 feet tall, sometimes he looks over 4 yards and 2/3's as massive. I doubt they will be able to keep a character's physique consistent from artist to artist, unless you are the artist.

Sorry about the long winded rant… I think this thread strikes a nerve (in a good way.)

BTX

Same I guess. I usually don't find myself too hesitant to get involved in threads like these.  🙂 But I guess I should say something every once in awhile.

[Vollar-Tile]

Actually, you're giving him far too much credit – and insulting pricks, everywhere.   😉

Iron Man = The neo-Dr Doom.  8) 

My own opinion is that we're a very long way off before its taken seriously in the comics, since they are a reflection of pop-culture and culture has (in the current era) acquired a distaste for real-world musclegals on the uberbuffed lines that we enjoy.

After all, if Lyman Dally couldn't make a go of his two comics, which should have had major appeal to our niche (cult?) audience, what makes anyone think a major player is going risk the invested capital in a mainstream character/title?

As for uberbuffed, the most muscular render of any was She-Hulk in Avengers: Search for the She-Hulk and they made her out to be a whackjob psycho towndestroyer, without any regards for the lives of others.  Hardly what I'd call the kind of positive reinforcement that we are looking for in buffed superwomen.

I wouldn't say that; it's because of instances like that have helped boost her reputation. Could be worst… she could be Powergirl… and get easily punked by Black Adam.  :-

[TC2]

I didn't mean the character would need to have muscles to kick ass, what I'm saying is.  If the character already has muscles AND kicks ass, it would be much easier for comic book readers to take that characters seriously.  However, personally for me since I'm not a very big fan of comics I'm going for the film approach where my character is just a woman with muscles as a bonus, rather than plot device.  I want whoever the actress is that plays her to express femininity through body language, but at the same time have a body that's strong enough to overcome mighty foes.

With the waning interest in comics that only die hard fans or comic book afficionados are following; I'd rather just go straight into making a movie about the character I have in mind rather than take my chances in the comics.

[AlexG]

Stop fetishizing muscles! A story has to have something going on in the narrative besides how buff the character is. If the creator is fetishizing his own creation, naturally the reader/viewer will follow his lead. That's the power of art. How much muscle the characters have should not be a plot device. Stop drawing figures in overtly sexual positions (worm-eye POV shots of crotches and butts). No characters with "do me" facial expressions and commentary (assuming they are not being "done"). No clothing that over-emphasizes female attributes in your illustrations (low cut shirts and butt floss are not as common in women's daily attire as men would hope)–keep it realistic and relevant to real life, not what's realistic and relevant in porn and the gentleman's clubs).

Learn to illustrate heroic poses and body language. Develop characterizations that are not based on the character's sexuality. "Sexuality" is not the same thing as gender–a mistake a lot of creators make. A female character can be sexual, but if her image invites one to wonder what she looks like f*cking rather what she's thinking about, you're headed the wrong way.

Don't do anything to a female character that you wouldn't do to a male character. Yes, both a female superhero and a male superhero can be captured by their nemeses and tied up, but if you wouldn't draw the male superhero with his balls compressed to epic proportions by his restraints because that's not "sexy" to you, what reason is there to do the same to the female superhero's breasts, if you're intention is not to say, "Look at these puppies!"? That is hard to take seriously.

Of course there is, but the story has to actually be all of the things you mention, and that can happen only by developing one's craft. (Let someone whose intelligence you trust read your work–if they don't find it funny, then it's most likely not.) It's not necessarily bust size that precludes female characters from being taken seriously, it's that there's often nothing else going on in their stories to engage people, so that's what people latch onto. So to speak. 😉

All of what you say does have merit, as in regards to not treating the subject (genre?) purely as a fetish interest in the creative process.  However, that being said, when anyone does remove the sexualized fetish from the concept of femuscle, well – the appalling lack of expressed interest by those that should be supportive is nearly deafening.  This is especially apparent in story writing and to a lesser degree with certain types of the artworks posted here.  It’s almost as if the majority who do have an interest in the idea of strong, powerfully built women aren’t at all interested in a purely fantasy-fiction / adventure format, only ones that involves a powerful sexualization of the subject matter.

“I like a good story well told. That is the reason I am sometimes forced to tell them myself.”
~ Mark Twain / Samuel Clemens (1907)

[AlexG]

I wouldn't say that; it's because of instances like that have helped boost her reputation. Could be worst… she could be Powergirl… and get easily punked by Black Adam.  :-

I think you're purposefully ignoring my point.  Are you then saying that a rampaging hyperbuilt woman is a positive reinforcement that will persuade the average reader (male or female) that muscles + woman = a good thing.  I think not.

“I like a good story well told. That is the reason I am sometimes forced to tell them myself.”
~ Mark Twain / Samuel Clemens (1907)

[Chuck]

I'm going to have to go with Alex G on rampaging women not being a positive reinforcement, but I also have to say that Alex's comments on un-fetishized femuscle is unsettling. It's like saying they just want a person or a story that's brainless and full of explosions, or at least an exploding wardrobe. And certainly you can have femuscle in a story that isn't fetishized. However, it strikes me as rather heartless to disregard stories that, while having femuscle in them, are thrown away because it isn't fetishized…

oh…

The new Gen 13's like that because Caitlin's transformation wasn't fetishized like her original one, although she's still regarded as a sexual object in the story's universe but not by the art. I know we've had threads on here lamenting the lack of fetishization although it features a strong woman doing extraordinary things and being a very positive role model about it. I thought the last page of the first issue where Caitlin gets everyone in a group hug to be very positive as regards to how such heroes can be depicted as a whole. This is a Fairchild I can believe in more easily than one whose only purpose is to get as naked as possible in every issue. For crying out loud, on the list of Maxim's hottest superheroines that someone dug up a while back, what was Caitlin's primary appeal? Her costume malfunctioned as she opened a car door.

Be honest: how many people actually read the original Gen 13 mini-series? I tried reading it and Jim Lee's story was a little hard to get through.

[Vollar-Tile]

I think you're purposefully ignoring my point.  Are you then saying that a rampaging hyperbuilt woman is a positive reinforcement that will persuade the average reader (male or female) that muscles + woman = a good thing.  I think not.

I'm going to lay it flat out on the line; it will. If you want a character to be accepted as "this powerful" have her do powerful things. Whether she's good or bad only makes for the plot of the story.

Because the thing is, the average comic reader could care less about whether she's rampaging or helping, and whether female muscle is accepted or not. What they want is a good story and some action. If a buffed woman doing something bad or something good, happens to be part of an interesting or enjoyable storyarc so be it, just like therest of the characters out there.

Like I said before, if you're making a character for the expressed purpose of being respected, you're going to fail nowadays, like if a person were to try to make another Wolverine or Superman (Liefeld's creations). They got those markets pretty much closed and cornered, unless they can think of a good twist to catch the audience's eye.

When that issue came out with Shulkie doing the Hulk smash stuff, it got the readers actually talking about her in a positive manner, because she was doing something very powerful and significant.

On the messageboards I visit regularly, I didn't read much any screaming to the heavens about how the horrible green woman with big muscles scared them, they were more interested in how Jen actually having some airtime and going into a Hulk-famous "She-Hulk SMASH!" state, and how she stacked up against the others of the Marvel U, (and an occasional joke about the pantyshots).

"Damn! Good showing. Do you think she was as powerful as the Hulk then when she was like that??"

"Nah, I think Hulk was still stronger."

"Wonder Woman vs She Hulk! Who winz!"

That sorta stuff, along with what they thought about the plot, whether it made sense or not, that sorta thing. As well when the She Hulk powerup came around in the Dan Slott issues, I heard MUCH more care about how she stacked up against the rest of the MU, rather than how buffed out she looked in that Titania powergem storyarc. Nowadays between both stories, I hear She Hulk talked about more often than she used to be.

I think that is what is bugging me about this. In my experience; if you want a buffed female character to be accepted, she doesn't need to be catered to the audience or put emphasis on how she has big muscles. Just write a good, entertaining story with her involved, without pushing or trying to find a way for the reader to accept her. If the story is accepted as enjoyable, and she may will be as well.

[MaxxC]

I really, really loved the points in this thread. I don't think I can add more to what was already pointed out. I also have to agree with Alex, though from my POV, in the end, the comics have to sell and make money and the only way to do that is attracting the viewer.

That said, until the image of the hypermuscular strong woman in most people's mind changes to that of something more of an ideal role model for girls and a more acceptable look for people, people will not take them seriously.

Right now, most people are favoring the more more warrior / amazon / athletic types. Something like a Buffy or a Xena or Black Cat.

What REALLY makes me roar and pound a few roads into dust are these uber-strong female characters that are skinny or built like a supermodel (pardon the pun). I just totally cringe seeing that because it's totally over the top and when that character faces a REAL strong woman who's bigger and more muscular, it's usually the tiny uber-powered girl that wins only because she's just "stronger". UGH… it makes BIG MAX want to SMASH!  ;D

[Chuck]

I have to agree that what really matters is that the story is well told and that if that's done, the rest follows.

I suppose respect is too strong a word; I actually just meant people pick up and read this hypothetical comic book and like it and get past that gut reaction some people have to a woman that looks like a walking tank. Slott at least did that, like him or not. I thought he was awesome in depicting She-Hulk, until they made her into a gorram cartoon with Rick Burchett… grrr……..

On Big Max: Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. And the more uber strong female person is also usually so uglified (I made up a word and like it) that it further degrades the idea of a pleasant buff heroine.

The acceptance by way of a team idea does have merit though; after all, Knockout functions well as a team member of the Secret Six, and she's, well, a knockout.

I also agree with Vollar-Tile on catering to the audience; it just doesn't work. Write what you love and someone somewhere will like it.

[JimmyDimples]

On the "super small, cute girl with ridiculously high strength" thing:

I think we have Japanese cartoons and comics to blame for that.  One of Anime and Manga's Cardinal Rules is:  The Smaller, More Petite, and Kawaii/Cute It Is… The More Likely It Will Destroy The Planet.

One of my first faves that kindled my interest in J-Pop was the film Project A-ko.  And yes, they had the stereotypes in her fights:  Mari (Fist of the North Star in drag) and Liza Chichi in the Vs. movies.  (Liza imparticularly sparked my interest a little in the "bigger is better" kick I'm on now… but it didn't happen overnight.)

I think BTX hit the bullseye in his Stunt Fu analysis.  I have mixed feelings about the message sent to the ladies in the theater seats:  You don't have to be a overbuilt stacked colossus to kick butt.  Positive reinforcement, sure, but when schoolgirl Eiko throws the tank in the film, then I'm afraid we big girl fans are gonna be left out in the cold.

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