[greyfox]

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I'm not in any form of denial about steroid use.  If you'd like, I'll message you with the names of FBBers who I consider to have gone too far in their use.  I know the signs, and I can assure you that people her like AlexG will tell you that I sometimes obsess about my favourites showing those signs.  Like The_Collector, I see no evidence whatsoever that Jo is using.  Now, she may be lying.  Then again, so might I.  For all anyone here knows, I might be a female ballerina, or a Space Shuttle crew member, or a brain surgeon.  The fact is, though, that I'm neither of those, and that any speculation that I might be is just that; speculation with no supporting evidence.  Just the same as you speculating about Johanna. 

I never said that anyone was specifically (key word) was in denial, i just said that by even talking about naturals being on the nation stage shows (that in my opinion) that was the case for some who jumps to there defense. In your case, obviosuly your not. But my freind, if you are not in denial, I would respectfully call you naive. The belief that any athlete on the national scene, competing in bb'ing show naturally is simply impossible from a biological/ medical standpoint. As I said in a previous post, women simply cannot produce the sheer amount of testosterone that is needed to grow muscles the size (and maintain that size with such an incredibly low bf.) of national level competitors with out steroids. Roids are basically synthesised test., and when injected it produces excellerated muscle growth when training for it. And yes, I am speculating, but the evidence (which to me is her body) IMHO is simply incontrevertable.

[greyfox]

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I'm offended. Weather or not your are trying to call the members of this board ignorant thats how it's coming off.  >:(

And from what your saying there can not be any truely exceptional female who possesses physiology such as Jennifer Abrams, Rhonda Dethlefs, and Carman Unger who all pride themselves on being drug free are all lying. Not everyone's chemical makeup is the same so I can beleive that there are some women in the sport who can build a lovely physique without drugs. I however am in no way ignorent to the fact that these women are at a very heavy(and I do stress the words very heavy) disadvantage to the girls that juice.

If your going to make statements such as the ones you need to back it up with sonething more than a challenge that is based off other people's opinions and be more carefull in your criticism of other peoples level of knowledge on the matter before they even state them. It's not a big secret that the people that frequent boards like these are obsessed with the primary subject of the board and will study it with great passion. So to say that "some of you don't know much (or are in denial) about the "dark side" of bodybuilding" is a lot like telling a mechanic that he doesn't know much about cars.  >:(

If you are indeed offended all I can do is offer you my apologies, but I can assure you (as i think you know) that was not my intention. Yes, I think that everyone who competes nationally and pro level juice at least; so you know where I stand when those people you mentioned claim to be natural. And I never said that you specifically where ignorant to steroid useage; obviosuly your not.

I offered the challenge because I knew that no matter what I said, there would be those who did not believe me; it was just another way of verifying my argument. And by the way, male Pro's on those sites are considered the paramount of body building opinions, not saying that they are right about everything in BB'ing, but I can say with full faith that those select few can tell if a person is taking roids just by looking at a photo. Yes I know that sounds ridiculous to many of you, but IMO it is true espcially for Fbb's. So yes I am supremly confident in thier knowledge (those select few, perhaps I should have specified that more in my post-granted.) Well in my experience on these boards, I think many have blind faith in that they refuse to believe that any fbb takes roids, and for some reason think that steroids are cheating in BB'ing—there not. They are a given. So perhaps my experience was not the same as yours, but thats the consitent impression I get from the majority (not the everyone of course).

[greyfox]

Part 4,

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Precisely.  Back-up your accusation, greyfox. >:(

I did that in my 2nd post, whether or not it was sufficient, is debatable.

Look, I love fbb's, I love FMG, I have been an active, contributng member of the fbb/fmg community both off and online (though, admittidly not at this site so much but certaintly others under manyyyy alias's). I simply do no believe that any male or female competing at or above JD's level is natural. I believe this because of both conventional, proven BB wisdom and more importantly because of biological facts.

One final though: I know some of you must workout here, some of you must work out to "get huge" or "ripped". Many of you are guys, so just for a moment, for those of you who do work out for muscle growth, think about yourself, a male remember, who has putting in workout after workout, year after year to the gym. Now lets focus on those of you who have put in 5 natural, consistent, well deit'ed years. How do you look? I'd be willing to bet that most of you dont look as good (muscular development wise and certaintly muscle size wise in proportion to height AND body fat) as even a national level fbb (on, mid, or offseason). Think back on those 5 hard years of sweat from hours of pumping iron, and swallowing those terrible protein shakes after every workout. Did u gain 25lbs of water, carbs, fat, and muscle? Proboblly, but maybe not, I dont know any of you. Now imagine an average girl with literally 1/13th of your muscle building power doing what you did over 5 years… 

Even if JD has amazing genetics (which clearly she does), her body simply cannot produce the levels of testosterone needed to get muscles big enough to compete on that stage.

Before you immidiatly flame me, at least look in medical journals or talk to an "expert" about what I am saying (although I think you should be research first because it will be more powerful to you).

Again, I'm not a bad guy, I have a problem with none of you, and none of this is intended to insult any of you on any level. I love the female muscle community but I sincerly believe that every (male of female) fitness, figure, or BB'er on the nationl/ pro stage juices, takes hgh, insulin, or a combo of all 3.

[TC2]

All right, well you had a valid response to each of us, at least I think for myself.

My only request is that, regardless of if any FBB's use roids or not, is a topic best left untouched.  To compete it isn't uncommon for women to take "3rd party" products.  I only ask that it not be talked about, if they use the roids, they use them.  But for those of us who admire these women, just giving the thought of someone so attractive using steroids could tarnish the illusion.

Let's remember, most of us may never meet these women in person, therefore their illusion of beauty remains impeccable.  To accuse someone of roiding without any physical facts, like drug tests and what not means that there isn't enough sufficient evidence.  If there is not sufficient evidence, why bring it up in the first place?

So once my again, my request is that unless there's been drug testing done or some kind of big reveal, it's better that we don't discuss the roids, just for the sake of keeping blissful ignorance.

[00tree]

Part 3:

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If you are indeed offended all I can do is offer you my apologies, but I can assure you (as i think you know) that was not my intention. Yes, I think that everyone who competes nationally and pro level juice at least; so you know where I stand when those people you mentioned claim to be natural. And I never said that you specifically where ignorant to steroid useage; obviosuly your not.

I offered the challenge because I knew that no matter what I said, there would be those who did not believe me; it was just another way of verifying my argument. And by the way, male Pro's on those sites are considered the paramount of body building opinions, not saying that they are right about everything in BB'ing, but I can say with full faith that those select few can tell if a person is taking roids just by looking at a photo. Yes I know that sounds ridiculous to many of you, but IMO it is true espcially for Fbb's. So yes I am supremly confident in thier knowledge (those select few, perhaps I should have specified that more in my post-granted.) Well in my experience on these boards, I think many have blind faith in that they refuse to believe that any fbb takes roids, and for some reason think that steroids are cheating in BB'ing—there not. They are a given. So perhaps my experience was not the same as yours, but thats the consitent impression I get from the majority (not the everyone of course).

Apology accepted. Weather I agree with you or not I can appreciate that you are able to discuss your thoughts without name calling.  🙂 We don't like that here on this board and the moderators do an excellent job (WAY TO GO GUYS!!!) of keeping the peace. We are all adults and conduct ourselves as such even though we do have our more childish  😛 moments from a time to time.

It's okay if we have people on the board with different vews and opinions so that we can discuss our diffences of thought and weigh them. I'm still going to disagree with you (and its okay that you feel differently, I'm not trying to change your mind I'm just staiting my thoughts) that there isn't any women who have a wonderful gift geneticaly to build muscle because humanity is so vast and comes in so many shapes and sizes. I know its unlikely but there have been women over seven feet tall and there really isn't a drug you can take for that.  ;D So if a woman can be over seven feet tall why not have another who can build some muscle?

Those are my thoughts and I thank you for yours sir.

[cpbell0033944]

Yes, time to turn down the heat on this one.  Just a word from a biologist; it's inaccurate to say that, because an average woman has 1/13th the amount of circulating testosterone, that she has only 1/13th the muscle-building power.  There are many other biological factors at play.  I do get irritated, I'm afraid, when non-biologists make grand statements that are inaccurate, and that is one of the reasons I tend to react.  As a disabled person who can't lift much at all, I don't know the level required to get in shape like that from personal experience.  I do, however, know that Johanna is known to train harder than most, and was lifting heavy weight as a girl working on her parents' dairy farm (carrying calves in from fields has been mentioned somewhere) and this would tend to produce an adult physique with thicher bones and larger muscle attatchments.

[jdfan]

Interesting comments guys. I'd like to come back on a couple of GreyFox's points:

On the idea of us guys comparing our own BBing efforts to FBBs like Johanna: I agree there's no way I can build muscle like Johanna naturally. But that doesn't mean others can't. eg. As a child in school I was just a bag of bones, straight up and down. But other guys had 'mini He-Man' type bodies from day one. Not thru any exercise – just genetics. So projecting your own experience onto others isn't always valid.

I've talked to Johanna about about her pre-show diet and it is extreme beyond any experience of mine. eg. Drinking practically nothing for the last 2 weeks before contest. And off-season she eats like a horse – masses of veggies too – with an obsessive attention to weights, measures and regularity. Again – way beyond my experience. Who knows what I'd look like if I had her will-power and committment. We'll never know cos I'm too lazy and fond of eating junk.

Male Pro's on those sites are considered the paramount of body building opinions…I can say with full faith that those select few can tell if a person is taking roids just by looking at a photo.

I fail to see why these guys should be considered the source of all wisdom. Many have been juicing since very early in their career's, so how are they qualified to say what a gifted natty like Jo can or can't achieve after 15 years of natural training?

Re the idea that some guys can take roids without any sides. True, but I find women's bodies tend to be more sensitive to the ravages of these drugs. Few women are able to avoid all side effects.

Finally, what's Jo's motivation for lying about her natural status when she's competing in non-tested competitions like the North Americans? It doesn't give her any advantage. Drugs are widely used and accepted by her competitors. What's her motivation? Is she just a compulsive liar? And why would she start a website called 'Naturally Built' in 2002 if she was quietly juicing all the while? Seems risky to me. She might start exhibiting side effects any day then look like a stupid fraud. Surely it would be better just to do what everyone else does and not mention drugs. Unless she really is natural.

As Johanna says in her AMG profile:

"I believe anyone can obtain their desired look naturally through planned nutrition and exercise."

Actually I don't believe just anyone can, but it's a commendable sentiment – and an inspiration for us all to try.

[cpbell0033944]

jdfan makes some good points.  She has too much to lose by advertising her natural status if she's not.

[fasola]

well guys, my only comment here on this matter is, and I really think that JD is natural, but it seem almost everybody here has omitted the fact that she has compited in drug-tested events. I mean, if there are shows where BBs are tested, and she compites, then, the most likely thing to asume if that she is natural. I don't know how much it would take, to "clean-up" you system from any performance enhancing drug, but, for ehat I heard and read, it's not like you dump the juice and you can contiinue working out jsut like that, your body feels the lack of those drugs, and you can't keep up your workouts.

just my 2 cents

[jdfan]

Yes indeed. She's been competing in tested events every year for the last 12 years – in addition to the occasional untested competition. Now I know drug tests can be beaten (look at Marion Jones et al) so in itself that doesn't prove anything. But again, why would she stake her reputation on being natural then risk her reputation every year when she could easily just compete in untested events and/or just not mention drugs like everyone else. It doesn't add up.

[Author]

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