[Yaponvezos]

Pardon my ignorance but what gives for such polarity of opinion when it comes to Michael Moore? I'm not American so it's quite difficult to understand such things, not knowing much about the political system and what have you of the USA.

But regardless of all that, why has one system have to be better? I think that what should matter is how suited is each system for the economy it's used on.

I have one other thing to ask though. How come and every time the word "socialism" is brought up, it immediately gets associated with communism?

Where I come from, socialism is just one of three major schools of democratic thought that, according the the circumstances, may or may not express itself radically. I might not be all that much for it at times but I think it's better to have around than not have it at all. Without it or without any conflicting theories there would be no friction and I strongly believe that friction leads to progress.

[Lingster]

A lot of people don't like Michael Moore because they believe his last film aided radical Islamists in Iraq and Afghanistan, at the expense of the lives of U.S. and British military personnel.  That makes him the worst sort of opportunist.

As for socialism, communism and other collectivist schemes, many Americans view them as slippery slopes into authoritarianism.  Socialism and communism rest on the same conceits, after all, and communists generally clothe themselves as socialists until they're in a position of strength.

America's founders saw democracy as a means to preserve liberty, not as an end in itself.  So to employ socialism in a democracy, when socialism has anti-libertarian tendencies, would be to negate the purpose of having a democratic state apparatus in the first place. 

[Yaponvezos]

Well I haven't watched the movie in question so I'm not in a position to form an opinion. Out of curiosity though, I'll get my hands on it and see what comes out of that.

Going on with socialism, yes it can be a slippery slope. But then a lot of things can in the presence and control of the wrong people. I'm not sure I can blame a theory. I feel it only makes sense to blame people and the choices they make.

Then again, you people might be on the edge with socialism/socialists etc. since (if I got that right) there is no american communist party so a communist has no other way to pursuit his/her agenda in, shall we say, concealment.

Where I live we have a communist party that enjoys the support of a small part of the population. So small in fact that all they are left with is the ability to whine publicly. At least there is no doubt about who is and who isn't a communist. We don't worry though, mainly because a communistic economy is suicide these days and the communist party has no chance to get into a position of power for that particular reason.

But oh I'm wandering here. It's just that I find all this "right wing", "left wing" etc. system ridiculous in so many ways. The world would be a much better place had we a bit more of a common sense.

[Lingster]

It's not about common sense – it's about restraining the wicked.

[foureyes]

yes, Yaponvezos, we (USA) have a communist party. And the Democrats favora very socialist agenda. They are always talking about "redistribution" of wealth, and socialized health care.

If you ask a Canadian about thier health care, they will tell you how bad it is. They tell the doctors how many times they can perform any specific operation. If you need that operation, but they've done all they are allowed to do, you can't have it, even if you can afford to pay for it. That's why many Canadians go to the USA to get treatment.

[TC2]

How many people have actually seen the movie anyway?  I saw some clips and there are some valid points Moore brought up which spoke to both Democrats AND Republicans.  It became less about whose political party you're with and more about society as a whole.

Unlike his previous films, this one is not geared towards being politically correct or choosing a side, it's more about showing what some people have to go through in order to get healthcare in the US.  I'm always of the opinion that you should watch the movie first before jumping to conclusions, and from the clips I saw it was actually pretty decent and not choosing a side.

[Yaponvezos]

It's not about common sense – it's about restraining the wicked.

Well I beg to differ. In my experience wickedness has more ties with idiocy and other problems. Wickedness seems to be more of an expression of a bunch of problems and not the cause of them.

yes, Yaponvezos, we (USA) have a communist party. And the Democrats favora very socialist agenda. They are always talking about "redistribution" of wealth, and socialized health care.

Didn't know that, thanks for clearing it up.

If you ask a Canadian about thier health care, they will tell you how bad it is. They tell the doctors how many times they can perform any specific operation. If you need that operation, but they've done all they are allowed to do, you can't have it, even if you can afford to pay for it. That's why many Canadians go to the USA to get treatment.

Didn't know that either.

How many people have actually seen the movie anyway?  I saw some clips and there are some valid points Moore brought up which spoke to both Democrats AND Republicans.  It became less about whose political party you're with and more about society as a whole.

Unlike his previous films, this one is not geared towards being politically correct or choosing a side, it's more about showing what some people have to go through in order to get healthcare in the US.  I'm always of the opinion that you should watch the movie first before jumping to conclusions, and from the clips I saw it was actually pretty decent and not choosing a side.

I'm not sure if you 're referring to me but just in case, I don't feel I've jumped to any conclusions regarding the movie in question as I've yet to express any opinion about it. But if you were saying that in general, well…forget I ever typed the last lines.

[peirrotlunaire]

Just a note about Canada.  I'm Canadian and have never been refused treatment, nor has anyone I know.  I think a lot of what foureyes said was incorrect.  The biggest problem in Canada is waiting lists for treatment.  This is a concern for some Canadians, but every election the population voices their strong support for government run healthcare.  Is it perfect, no, but is the most equitable and fair to all our citizens. 
As for Canadian innovation, many Canadian medical professionals are highly regarded in their field and yes Canada has made many medical breakthoughs, not the least of which was insulin and most recently a new kind of artificial heart. 
As for left/right wing.  It is interesting that totalitarianism has not been mentioned once in this discussion.  Marx's communism has never existed, all have been various forms of extreme socialism or totalitarianism in the case of Stalin's USSR and Mao's China.  So while many people died in those countries in the 20th century it was most often due to war (WWII for example) or the delusions of a maniac (Stalin).  Remember, just because I say I am a genius doesn't mean I am.  Stalin said he was a Communist but he wasn't in reality.  The fascist Nazi's called themselves the socialist party for chrissakes!
Keep in mind also, that as economic and social theories go communism is fairly young.  Democracy started with the Greeks and it has taken us thousands of years to even sort of get it working right.  And yes, Socialism and Communism are quite different, not the least of which concerns violent revolution.  (something I am quite shocked that Lingster opposes!  Amazon women of the world unite!)

As for socialized medicine slowly leading to the slippery slope of communism in America, well that just seems a little ridiculous.

Sorry for the long post, but I thought some new ideas might help this discussion.

[AlexG]

I'm not a fan of socialistic Canada, but you have to give them credit in one area – they had enough common sense left to eliminate anchor-baby birth citizenship. And it was pushed through by one of their legislators of Chinese ancestry who recognized the inherent danger that it posed to their national survival.

Its a thing that our fearless leaders have yet to learn here in the so-called unsocialistic USA.

“I like a good story well told. That is the reason I am sometimes forced to tell them myself.”
~ Mark Twain / Samuel Clemens (1907)

[Lingster]

Well, here's the thing Yaponvezos, eventually somebody has to pay.  Look at your home country – my understanding is that in the next ten years, Greece's senior pensions program will be obliged to the tune of almost 30% of GDP.  Where is that money supposed to come from?  Do you think the EU is going to pay it for you?

Also, Canada forces U.S. pharmaceutical companies to sell their drugs well below market value, and the only reason that works is because Americans take up the slack.  Without the U.S. to pay the way, Canada's healthcare system wouldn't have any medicine.

So whenever you've got a socialist system in place, it's got to siphon money from someplace to make up for the shortfall.  Canada is parasitic on the U.S., Greece is parasitic on the future.  Even then, Canada is no paradise – the standard of living in Canada is noticeably lower than in the U.S., and Canada has trouble keeping its best and brightest from moving across the border to the U.S., for better opportunities.

A free economy has its drawbacks, obviously, but at least it's fiscally sustainable.

[Author]

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