[cpbell0033944]

Thanks Alex – what a physique she has (had)!  If you see my new post in the "Leaving Amazons" thread, (once people have had a hance to reply, could you possibly lock it, please – I'd like to leave it behind now, if I can) then her physique is just about my current ideal – big, but still vertically-elegant; a great v-taper, but not bulky or blocky.  What a lady! I think she replaces Skye Ryland in my affections (I'm that smitten).  😮 😉 8)

[cpbell0033944]

Yep! Peace and love!
And yet, maybe in 2017, French and Brits will make peace too…  ;D

).  Our two great nations get on a lot better than they used to. ;D

[cpbell0033944]

I think perhaps you folks were right – my tastes have changed and I've dramatically over-analysed it. ::) :-[  Reading the article that mentioned the 'vertical physique' idea gave a name to the feelings that I had.  My tastes have changed slightly (oddly enough, back more to where they were when I discovered femuscle last year) away from the hypermuscular and back to a still very big (16 inch biceps on a woman are still something I find insanely sexy), but more flowing physique.  Thanks everyone for your honest words of wisdom, and for not losing your patience with my dithering. 🙂

[cpbell0033944]

Thanks to The_Collector_2 and Yaponvezos for your articulate and considered views.  I did say that I hadn't been able to express my feelings very well, and I think that explains some of what you covered in your responses.  I suppose I tend to have a guilty conscience in that I always thought less of someone who cheated in an examination etc. – the thought of doing the same was abhorrent to me.  I think this is at play here – I tend to be upset that someone who has built an incredible physique drug-free feels the need to then start juicing to get a final 5-10%; I dislike the fact that both male and female bodybuilders at the top level are required to juice in order to stand any chance of doing well.  In motorsport, cars are scrutineered before and after a race to ensure that they meet the technical regulations – if a team is caught cheating, they are punished.  This means that the less wealthy teams need not spend money on breaking the rules to stand a chance of being competitive.  However, in BB, it seems that breaking the laws of the land is indirectly encouraged and made necessary for competitiveness because everyone does it.  If BB wants to get a better public profile and be respected as a sport, then, in the US (where non-prescribed steroids are illegal), it must test competitors. 

Also, I am finding that my tastes and preferences are changing towards preferring what I've read one person decribe as a 'vertical physique' rather than an 'horizontal physique' for FBB (in fact for male BB as well).  It is called bodyBUILDING, not bodyMORPHING or bodyTRANSFORMING, after all.  It seems to be that the drugs help both genders to become extremely wide and blocky, which I do not find asthetically-pleasing in the men, and am no longer finding attractive and sexy in the women.  When you consider that many FBBs are fairly short (in the 5"2' to 5"6' range mostly, it seems, extreme width from behind (lat spread) looks to me out-of-proportion with height.  I still, obviously like a nice v-taper, but when the angle of that taper from behind gets towards 40-45 degrees from the vertical, to me it becomes too bulky and awkward-looking.  On a taller competitor, I think it looks better, because it's more in proportion with the rest of the body, but my understanding was that symmetry, balance (which I'm referring to here as 'proportion') and shape were as important judging criteria as size.

As to the idea that I thought that none of my fvourites had never juiced, that isn't what I meant.  I'm sure that some have, but, (this is where I admit to hypocrisy) if they don't look or sound as if they have, I'm not as worried.  How does that then explain why I am removing Gina and Nikki from my Goddess' list?  Well, after seeing a photo of Nikki doing a rear lat spread, I found myself thinking that she had crossed-over into 'horizontal physique', and that this photo seemed remarkably unsexy to me, whereas I had always previously found her to be very sexy indeed.  Couple that wih the T-nation stuff I linked to (which now confuses me as the lady in this guy's photostream who he claimsto be married to is NOT the Nikki Fuller I'm thinking of, and I started to wonder what the hell is happening. 

As far as Gina Davis is concerned, she started to worry me – I was very turned-on by the photos from her blog that I posted showing her arms even more massive than before, but I thought "If this guy is right about Nikki, then what the heck would he reckon somebody as big as Gina be doing?"  I repeat that I stiill find it hard to accept that either are doing anything different to anybody else – they both have great genetics and are obviously dedicated and brilliant about using diet and training to make the most of themselves.  I certainly don't think that anyone is a bad person if they do use steroids; I more bemoan the culture that pushes them into doing so, and wish that more felt able to resist the pressure.  I therefore wish (more than you'll ever know) that Nikki and Gina entered natural contests – I know even that's no guarantee that the competitors don't juice offseason (although I doubt if many, if any at all do), but at least it enables us to look at everybody at a contest and be confident that we're seeing 100% dedication, not 80% dedication and 20% pharmaceuticals.

The reason that Gina and Nikki might yet re-enter my list is that neither of them show the androgenous effects that I find such a turn-off.  The voice in particular, gets me every time with some FBBs – an attractive lady (who possinly doesn't look masculinised) with a great physique, then she opens her mouth and, oh no – she sounds like Brian Blessed (British actor – large, famous for having a deep, cheery, town-crier voice). Also, the facial changes (dodgy skin, huge jawline, out-of-balance nose, etc.) really turn me off.  That's why I'm in such a quandry, that's why I say that I don't really think they can be doing any more than anyone else – they still look and sound like women; yet I just can't help but wondering whether by drooling over them, I am stepping onto a slippery slope that ends with me fetishizing the enlarged private parts of a certain famous female wrestler.  How will I be able to sustain my judgement?

[cpbell0033944]

Since your dropping two, maybe you'll want to add Skye Ryland to your list . . .  😉

Thanks Alex.  I had hoped to make my landmark 500th post a little more significant, but I did see your post on her, and was very impressed.  I think I will put her in the list, come to mention it. ;D 8)
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say with respect to Nikki and Gina – I still deeply admire them, but I feel tainted – my innocence that let me look at hypermuscular women like them who, I hasten to add look to me very feminine has gone.  Too many women whose faces are changed by steroids, too many doubts about whether I am as much a supporter of femuscle as I thought because I found androgenic faces too offputting, too much uncertainty as to what FBB should be about, and too many suggestions that FBBs that I admired and drooled-over had achieved what they had by using drugs. 

The last straw was reading, earlier today, a discussion on T-nation about women and steroids containing a post from Nikki's husband explaining that they decided to start her on low-level Winstrol a while back to build more muscle (did she need any more?), and that, although they cut-back when her voice became affected, thus nipping it in the bud quickly enough for them to reverse the voice problems, that it had stopped her period (not a problem because she was too old to have kids etc.) and that they were happy with it.  He was promoting Winstrol as a good steroid for women in moderation, whilst the other contributors disagreed, saying that it was androgenic and not suitable for anyone who wasn't happy with androgenous effects.  I stress that this was what he was saying – any suggestions that Nikki has ever used steroids are NOT mine  I can't imagine that this guy was a crank, as he seemed to be a well-established member of T-Nation, but it upset me – Nikki was, as you know, a favourite of mine, and the thought that she might be risking her beauty by taking steroids when she already had a body to die for was shattering.  If I'd have read this two or three weeks ago when  started this thread, it might well have been enough to make me leave and try to rid myself of my atraction to muscular women.  Sounds pathetic, I know, but I felt so low at the time. 🙁

Link:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1337495&pageNo=0

Contributor in question was prisoner#22

Hold on a sec; I've just looked at the photos in his profile, and his wife (or at least the woman in the pics) isn't Nikki, or at least, if she is, then there are two Nikki Fullers around. ???
Maybe he is a crank?

[cpbell0033944]

Hi all,
I'm now one post short of a big milestone (or should that be millstone? ;D), i.e. 500 posts.  Having given the subject a lot of thought, I've decided that, to help me to continue to enjoy female muscularity, I'm going to remove from my goddess' list (it only now exists in my Favourite sites system on AOL, which is a bit like a bookmark list), but not from the list of those I greatly admire, a couple of the bigger ladies who do not compete in natural competitions. :'(  It's been far from an easy decision, and I do so with a heavy heart, as I have I think already mentioned that there are times when the really huge muscles turn me on, but it isn't worth it for the dilemma that this poses for the rest of the time. 

I do hope that you folks won't be too upset, and will understand that, by slightly lowering my upper muscle limit for a competitor in "unlimited" competition below that which I sometimes find sexy, I'm putting in place a kind of 'buffer-zone' to prevent heartache such as I expressed earlier in this thread.  This DOES NOT mean that I am accusing them of anything, just that I always felt that they caused the doubting gremlin on my shoulder to question me.  I've cast that gremlin off now. 

The ladies in question, are, regrettably Gina D and Nikki F. :'(  If I could be certain that they were 100% natural, I'd reinstate them, but I find it difficult, when dealing with ladies who I am cannot be certain don't juice, to justify where my 'line in the sand' should be.  I need a line in the sand, because I need to put those who, in my opinion are victims of a "bigger is automatically better" philosophy (re the lady mentioned negatively in the Dr Ablow thread) over that line, for the sake of my sanity and my personal views.  I've come to view BB (both male and female) as tending to overemphasise bulk and underemphasis the importance of shape, symmetry, flow and line.  For example, I have looked for purposes of reference at photos of the likes of Ronnie Coleman, and have found that I find him as bizarre-looking as many of the biggest women (obviously, as I am straight, the attractiveness side of things doesn't apply with the guys; I refer to Coleman and his ilk in the way that an enthusiast of sculpture or paintings might – I am certainly not in any way bisexual).

Perhaps this makes me a hypocrite, and if anyone is offended then I apologise, as I cannot say with 100% certainty that the likes of Ericca Kern (who remains on my Goddess' list) didn't at some time use steroids.  My explanation is that their level of muscularity was slightly less, therefore they do not cause confusion as to where my 'line in the sand' should be.  In other words, they had more of the elegance of shape and line that I now know I find perennially attractive than some of those at the very upper end of the range that I find desireable, therefore I don't find that they trigger the confusion and doubts that prompted me to start this thread in the first place. 

I haven't really been able to express in this post properly how I feel, but I hope that everybody will understand and accept my reasons for doing this.  It IN NO WAY means that the drooling posts in respect of Nikki and Gina were anything other than 100% honest and genuine.  All it means is that my feelings have changed as I've learned more; some of the wide-eyed awe has passed, I have become more cynical about the business of FBB, and this means that I now really dislike the concept of any BB, male or female using GH or steroids – I wish that the ladies never felt the need to take these things.  For a start, having fewer competitors with rough skin, square jaws, deep voices etc. would, I am convinced, help public acceptance of both FBB as a sport, and female muscularity as a concept, which I'm sure we would all agree would be very positive.

Thanks,
Chris Bell, otherwise known as cpbell0033944.

[cpbell0033944]

Yes, didn't approve in the least and has never supported her daughter's lifestyle choice.

Her mother partly blamed Shelly's husband for leading her daughter into bodybuilding, of this he didn't deny entirely.  After all, how could you not be exposed to the concept if your husband is so deeply into the lifestyle himself.  Even so, Shelly spoke up in his defence that it was done of her own choosing.

They showed pictures of what Shelly formerly looked like before taking up bodybuilding and she was not bad looking, but had all the proportions of a toothpick. Her mother would have preferred that she continued her career in modeling.  Also, I got the impression that she's a controlling personality – but then some parents never do accept the fact that their children grow up and as adults (in Shelly's case, she's a mother of two teenaged children) have lives of their own.

If you'd said that Shelly's mum didn't like the fact that she'd given-up, say a high-flying career in finance to do FBB, then I'd understand, but how is it that much different to modelling?  And, given then fact that three (albeit Brazillian) catwalk models have died in the last year or so from complications resulting from anorexia, you'd have thought that she'd be relieved that her daughter was away from that environment, although BB isn't often the healthiest environment either, I suppose.  What amuses me is that her mum looked (from the screencaps), to be quite strongly-built as well, although it may have been distortion or the camera telling lies.

[cpbell0033944]

Jdm022 – yes, I've seen screenshots of that (in fact, I think I've mentioned it already here somewhere), and it is, as you say, very hot.  I may be a bit disappointed that she's lost a lot of the musculature that she had for a few months after "Stealth", but she is still quite buff, and is certainly a hottie.

Ironb667 – thanks for your educated opinion.  To me, she looks leaner since she switched trainers, but she seems to have lost a fair bit of muscle mass.  Her delts, upper back and biceps were particularly impressive a while back, but now she seems to have lost them; perhaps it's a consequence of this new trainer's "low weight, high reps" philosophy.  Then again, isn't the trainer supposed to tailor the regime to match what the client wanted?  Perhaps she wanted a routine that would cause her to lose some upper-body muscle, as it may have been preventing her from getting movie roles.  Just one question:  what is a "platue breaker"?  You mentioned it at the end of your post.

[cpbell0033944]

That is a very BIG gun, indeed . . . 😉

You're not kidding!  A big gun for a big girl!

[cpbell0033944]

Yowza!!  Would that all women were capable of her muscular massiveness!!!!!!

I'm not (repeat NOT) saying anything about Ms Brandt, but if it took excessive steroid use for all women to develop her level of muscle mass, then I'm not so sure I'd agree.

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