[Yaponvezos]

Distortion, distortion, distortion. Did I say that all people are all good? No. Did you act like I did? Yes. Did I say everyone's the same? No. Did you act like I did? Yes. Is it that difficult for you to actually comment on what I really say? I regret to say it seems so.  But if you think you, yourself, as a man, are ugly and corrupt from the get go, I'm glad. Firstly because I won't have to prove it if I ever think I should and secondly because I find it funny that you attach to your nature vices you consider reasons for extinction in the case of others. If that's not ironic, I don't know what is.

I see you 're being cute with the Chinese. So you either did not understand me or you act like you didn't. In both cases, that's not a compliment to you. And all those miles of sea protecting you did nothing to prevent 9/11.

Your comments about the UN? Hilarious. The UN will never function as intended as long as there is the security council. It made sense 60 years ago, but it does not now. Plus the UN's formation was your idea all along. A nice one back then but you made it what it is today and bothers you so much.

Yes, the European Union struggles with bureaucracy. At least we 're not staging wars. You know why? Because we 've actually seen it outside our homes more times than enough. You haven't had that misfortune hence you feel you can afford feeling indestructible. That is exactly why 9/11 hurt the country and not only the people it killed.

Eventually you will understand. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. Anyone throughout history that thought he had everything in order had the worst of fates. It's time you learnt something from it and avoid similar mistakes. Broadening your perception and view of things won't hurt you, you know.

[Yaponvezos]

OMG?! 10 hours of poker?

[Yaponvezos]

Who said anything about engineering people? And why does it always have to be about communim? I 'm not saying what a government should do. I "m sayin what I believe a person should do.

And the Peloponnesian War comments refer to logic behind actions. The fact that you try to make any kind of point by noting whether there is an rival power or not is irrelevant to this conversation.

Glad to see you resorted to the word "order" instead of peace. At least it's far closer to the truth. And if you thing that only those with the biggest guns can be taken seriously well…I can't take this comment as anything but immature. Again history proves you wrong. Oh and the notion that ancient Athens was analogically weak because of the lack of nuclear submarines is laughable. Everything should be judged in the proper context you know.

Since you seem determined to take arrogance to a stratospheric level by saying that even when handipped the US can face ANY league of countries, you just end up showing you 're on a serious power trip. So if there is no one league of countries to look you in they eye, I'm obliged to assume, according to your claims, that should the whole world turn against you, you 'd come up victorious or lose and nuke the whole planet. Come on, just imagine what would happen if the Chinese would just WALK towards you or anyone for that matter.

And you 'd rather see Iran destroyed than to see it possess nuclear weapons? Do you even realise most of this planet's countries could say the same about your country? And then what? Nukes all over the place? How…juvenile. This saddens me a great deal. I'm not even going to use the civilization argument as you clearly to rate it high enough to even bother with it.

In my language, the word for human means "the one that raises his gaze to the sky/heavens". This word is the reason I refuse to give up hope on any person. This word is why seeing people cling to the past when nothing good can get out of it infuriates me. This word is the reason some of your views sadden me so much, you probably can't comprehend.

In the end, I can only try and set an example. You can try to do the same and whatever goes down, goes down.

[Yaponvezos]

Of course we have.That's why I'm saying these things so that you don't do as bad. We 've done a lot better too in the case of the (Eastern) Roman Empire (or Byzantine Empire, whatever floats your boat).  The fact that everything falls apart eventually can't be your excuse for not trying to make things better. According to this logic, since I'm going to die, you might as well kill me now and get it over with. Even chaos has laws of logic. That does not mean there 're right by default.

[Yaponvezos]

I have to insist. You really have to study history. And no. Reading it doesn't count. It's much more complicated than that. There's a reason history is supposed to be a science.

[Yaponvezos]

Let the record show that I'm actually still pissed off with Athens AND Sparta for the Peloponneisian War. And I'm a Greek. Immense stupidity and ego fused together to almost destroy a civilization.

On to the fear argument. I did not say that fear does not play a big role. I am saying that fear should not play a role. And fear sustains order not peace. The moment you have to instill fear to make anything move, you know you have reached decadence and it's only a matter of time before you crumble and fall.

Again I'm not saying everyone thinks like I do and what I'm saying has nothing to do with left or right for me. And since numerous examples in which fear was a "peacekeeping" factor were mentioned, take a moment to think where that factor lead with remarkamble certainty and precision and for what reason.

As for what justifies war, I think stmercy put it quite well.

[Yaponvezos]

The only thing that keeps the peace is fear.  The world ought to fear us more – the United States ought to be acting more like an empire and less like a big Switzerland.  I honestly have no idea why there are still inmates at Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay.  It's been years, and every single one of them ought to have been released or hanged by now.

Seriously, I could use a myriad of arguments against what you 're saying in your last post but that middle paragraph forces me to insist on one point. If that's truly what you think, you obviously need to study the history of humanity a lot more carefully for this conversation to go anywhere.

I hope we can get back on topic now.

[Yaponvezos]

I really only understood racism – or at least I came to understand it as well as I understand it now – one day about 10 years ago while walking through Dublin, Ireland.  I was surrounded by hundreds of members of my ethnic group – Celts.  As an American, I had never been in that circumstance before.  And walking by the Post Office in Dublin, at the foot of Grafton St., I had a kind of epiphany.

Being amongst a crowd of one's own kind is very seductive!  The Europeans here all know this already, but I didn't.  I'd never felt so relaxed in a crowd before.  Doubtless some kinship toggle in my brain switched into "home" mode for the first time in my life.  And my brain liked it.

I'd always thought of racism as simply an expression of anger or resentment, so the comfort of being around people who are ethnically similar to me took me by surprise.  It's a very dangerous thing – like an addictive drug.

Firstly I thought that almost anyone knew that feeling. Obviously, I was wrong. But still, I don't get exactly how what you described relates to racism. In my opinion racism is based on one of humanity most basic survival instincts: fear of the unknown. And different quite usually equals unknown. At least that's what psychology and history tell us. But I believe we are at an evolutionary stage that we can afford to find difference intriguing instead of scary and what have you. But I'd better stop here since I can see I'm wandering off again. Sorry.

[Yaponvezos]

I understand your rage is justifiable. I did not know you were actually there but even if you weren't, I can't support anything that takes people's lives unless it's actually a desperate defensive move. Obviously that attack wasn't such a move. And I'm not saying you have some kind of obligation to tolerate such things. I'm only wondering if the fact that intrusions have been so rare for you, you might get more easily pissed. Intrusion should not be tolerated of course. We don't tolerate that either. But there is a time that one realizes the said intrusions, regardless of their frequency or severity, are inevitable. It's sad but true. And if we let (by "we" I mean anyone and everyone) let anger rise over reason, we 're just making things worse.

For example I don't see why every single Afghani should be killed for what happened. It's not like the whole Afghanistan crashed into the towers. Of course the ones responsible have to pay in some way but everyone else should be spared. Justice and revenge are rarely the same thing I'm afraid. The same goes for what is legal and what is right.

As far as european opposition to american foreign policy goes, from my point of view, we don't oppose you enough in some things. We 're not saying some action you take is not justifiable. We just think it's not the right way to act. It's mainly a difference in philosophy. We 've been through many more wars and we won't be getting into one easily, let alone provide support to anyone that wishes to wage war. Despite that fact, Europe has provided support. Maybe not as much as you 'd like but I feel it's still more than you should get. From us you can take anything that helps survivors and families of the deceased feel or live better and whatever could help bring the guilty to justice. Help in waging a war in which, even if you win, it will be difficult for you to tell if you 've really won? Not so much.

On the nuclear weaponry, I just can't get your fixation on Iran. Anyone having nuclear weapons should be ridiculous and unacceptable by default. But you, having all sorts of nuclear weaponry, asking others to back off is so illogical it's almost funny. And since that's what you want really, please stop pretending you want everyone to back off in order to preserve peace. This is just diplomacy of the worst order. And as you put it earlier, I'll agree that, occasionally at least, especially such diplomacy really is for wankers.

Once again, I plea for you to understand thought that this is not a thread for these matters to be discussed. The point is to exchange views on each other, trying to understand, as well as anyone can, why we are at odds and hopefully work something out sooner rather than later. Surely you can see I'm trying to understand. What saddens me a bit is that, so far, I'm the only one asking questions. And if anyone feels I've been overly offensive, insensitive, non sensical or ill-natured in any way, please do say so as this is definitely not my intention.

[Yaponvezos]

Yep, I was talking about the ginger comment. Thanks for clarifying.

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