[greyfox]

Look, this is getting out of hand. And I do apologize for that.

I'll sum up this entire argument with a fair and balanced perspective.

My argument, JD, as a woman, cannot produce the levels of testostrone needed to attain her muscular development. Medical Science supports this, period end of story of my arguement

Overall defense (that to me made the most sense):

1) Hold that there are very exceptional circumstances in medical science, and JD is one of these cases.— every point that cpbell made above (which i think is the best sum of your arguement) comes down to this

I am willing to acknowledge the defense as barley plausible if you will in turn accept that that postition is indeed highly highly unlikly.

I have adressed everypoint that cp made directly (in previous posts) above except for number 1; slow and steady progress does not mean no roid use, it IMO means she didn't take incredibly intensive cycles or had a very hard time responding to the drugs (perfect exmaple= dave palumbo). If she was natural there would be a limit due to her low test levels; its just like saying your local gym rat with insane genetics can attain a Mr.O physque without the drugs, it wll just take a lot longer…

[greyfox]

Dude, you came into a pro Johanna thread and repeatedly stated in an arrogant and complacent manner that Johanna takes steroids – side-stepping or rubbishing the substantial evidence and arguments others posted in her defence.

As regards name calling – you are effectively calling Johanna a liar (since she claims to be natural) and a cheat (since she has won many natural BBing contests). These are serious allegations without a shread of proof – just your complacent statement that it's 'impossible' for Jo to be natural based on what the pro-steroid BB establishment say.

The thread had moved on to Johanna's Pro card victory – but you choose to restart the argument by again rubbishing the CBBF doping tests and by refusing to conceed that passing tests repeatedly over a 10 year period makes it any more likely she really is natural.

Libelous = maliciously defamatory. I think that's an accurate description of your allegations.

Bigot = a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

OK – maybe 'utterly intolerant' is too strong. But you're certainly smug, complacent and unwilling to conceed that you might not be right all the time.

OK – I'm ready to move on to discussing how great Johanna looks now.

I disagree, JD made a claim and I disagreed and cited why. And I did no side-stepping as my main argument has stayed in tact, I only adressed other issues as others brought them up. I made the comment about the other comps because it was brought up by someone else, I had to make a rebuttle; which I think is perfectly sane given the nature of "testing" in those contests.

And for the final time i cited medical facts that your very own resident biologist acknowledged as being at least lucid.

I was not malicous, Do you want to know what I could have done, what showing malic really is? I could have made a thread in the IFBB Pro Section at BB.com and let 30-50 or so people rip into JD post after post, while laughing at all those who support her natural claims here. BUT I didnt do that, did i?  I choose to debate this internally because it was the right thing to do

and I dont understand how I am smug; I said before that IF I am wrong, I would happily take back my statements.

But, the one thing that I do agree with you on is that I am ready to move on.

The End, agree to disagree, and btw 00tree- it was finished untill jd resorted to unsubstainiated defamation, and thank you for your unbias comments.

[greyfox]

It always suprises me how people like greyfox here have no problem with women permanently damaging their health and appearance thru steroid abuse. But should a woman succeed the old fashioned way – naturally, thru hard work and perseverance over a 13 year competitive career – they get called a cheat and a liar and have their achievements rubbished.

I agree it's kinda pointless debating it further though. The only thing we can conclusively prove is that Greyfox is a libelous bigot.

Anyway – congratulations to Johanna on her Pro card and the vindication of her decision to stay natural.

Acctually you can't conclude that I am a "libelous bigot" because none of you can prove me wrong for the simple fact that you dont KNOW that JD hasent taken roids; nor can you provide any explanation/defense to the medical facts i cited earlier (other than JD's word or the belief that there are exceptional cases in medical science).

In addition, those women who take those drugs do so on their on behalf and should be mature and responsible enough not do to so when endangering their health; I never once pushed for women to take roids, I only addmited that I like the look that they produce (like many of you here, im sure).

To conclude, I would like to note that I not once gave any snyde remarks or took part in childish name calling; exactly like what has been done to me.

Jdfan You may disagree with me, maybe you dont like me, but at least I can say that I debated a touchy subject without stooping to your level. If I am wrong about JD that I will glady take back my opinion, but I doubt that I am.

[greyfox]

I never said that testosterone levels were unimportant, just that they weren't the only factor.  I would agree that it's very rare for a woman to build big muscles without some help; my argument was with your assertion thatthis somehow proved Johanna to be a liar.  I would also agree with you about the drug-testing at some events; however, with the number of tested events she's done, she would have been very lucky to get through clean each time had she been juicing.

I agree with everything you said (espcially the bolded statment) except for the last sentence.

Also, CBBF and Ontario National events, while they do have a better rep than the IFBB and NPC, are still mired with similar problems.

Ok, I'am done on this topic. It's obvious we can't disprove eachother anyway.

BTW, finally a pro card? Congradulations. Long time comming

[greyfox]

Well I agree that it is indeed time to turn the heat down on this topic, as someone said above. It's ok that we can disagree on this issue. You know where I stand and why, and I know where those of you have posted stand- and thats fine.

*Just a couple of quick items.
on the "reputation" claims. I think it would be incredibly stupid for any BB'er to admit to taking steroids for obvious image and endorsement reasons. That being said, I dont know why JD would claim to be natural if shes not; i could offer theries but it would be pure speculation and I am not going to beat a now dead horse.

And to cbpell, I admit that I am not a qualified biologist by any means but if you are, even you must admit that test. production is the single greatest factor for muscle growth. My evidence on female test. was based on legitimate medical journals found threw a scholarly archive engine.

Also, there was someone who said that they fail to see how male bb's are an authority. I personally think they credible, but I did insist in early posts that acctual medical science evidence certaintly trump theirs.

And finally there was a comment about competeing in drug "tested" events. IFBB and NPC testing is frankly a joke, it is raveged with inconsistencies and hypocricy. There are hundreds of articles on this topic on the web.

Ladies and Gentlemen, lets get back to discussing JD's lucious biceps and not if they are natural.

[greyfox]

Part 4,

Last qoute:

Precisely.  Back-up your accusation, greyfox. >:(

I did that in my 2nd post, whether or not it was sufficient, is debatable.

Look, I love fbb's, I love FMG, I have been an active, contributng member of the fbb/fmg community both off and online (though, admittidly not at this site so much but certaintly others under manyyyy alias's). I simply do no believe that any male or female competing at or above JD's level is natural. I believe this because of both conventional, proven BB wisdom and more importantly because of biological facts.

One final though: I know some of you must workout here, some of you must work out to "get huge" or "ripped". Many of you are guys, so just for a moment, for those of you who do work out for muscle growth, think about yourself, a male remember, who has putting in workout after workout, year after year to the gym. Now lets focus on those of you who have put in 5 natural, consistent, well deit'ed years. How do you look? I'd be willing to bet that most of you dont look as good (muscular development wise and certaintly muscle size wise in proportion to height AND body fat) as even a national level fbb (on, mid, or offseason). Think back on those 5 hard years of sweat from hours of pumping iron, and swallowing those terrible protein shakes after every workout. Did u gain 25lbs of water, carbs, fat, and muscle? Proboblly, but maybe not, I dont know any of you. Now imagine an average girl with literally 1/13th of your muscle building power doing what you did over 5 years… 

Even if JD has amazing genetics (which clearly she does), her body simply cannot produce the levels of testosterone needed to get muscles big enough to compete on that stage.

Before you immidiatly flame me, at least look in medical journals or talk to an "expert" about what I am saying (although I think you should be research first because it will be more powerful to you).

Again, I'm not a bad guy, I have a problem with none of you, and none of this is intended to insult any of you on any level. I love the female muscle community but I sincerly believe that every (male of female) fitness, figure, or BB'er on the nationl/ pro stage juices, takes hgh, insulin, or a combo of all 3.

[greyfox]

Part 3:

Next quote:

I'm offended. Weather or not your are trying to call the members of this board ignorant thats how it's coming off.  >:(

And from what your saying there can not be any truely exceptional female who possesses physiology such as Jennifer Abrams, Rhonda Dethlefs, and Carman Unger who all pride themselves on being drug free are all lying. Not everyone's chemical makeup is the same so I can beleive that there are some women in the sport who can build a lovely physique without drugs. I however am in no way ignorent to the fact that these women are at a very heavy(and I do stress the words very heavy) disadvantage to the girls that juice.

If your going to make statements such as the ones you need to back it up with sonething more than a challenge that is based off other people's opinions and be more carefull in your criticism of other peoples level of knowledge on the matter before they even state them. It's not a big secret that the people that frequent boards like these are obsessed with the primary subject of the board and will study it with great passion. So to say that "some of you don't know much (or are in denial) about the "dark side" of bodybuilding" is a lot like telling a mechanic that he doesn't know much about cars.  >:(

If you are indeed offended all I can do is offer you my apologies, but I can assure you (as i think you know) that was not my intention. Yes, I think that everyone who competes nationally and pro level juice at least; so you know where I stand when those people you mentioned claim to be natural. And I never said that you specifically where ignorant to steroid useage; obviosuly your not.

I offered the challenge because I knew that no matter what I said, there would be those who did not believe me; it was just another way of verifying my argument. And by the way, male Pro's on those sites are considered the paramount of body building opinions, not saying that they are right about everything in BB'ing, but I can say with full faith that those select few can tell if a person is taking roids just by looking at a photo. Yes I know that sounds ridiculous to many of you, but IMO it is true espcially for Fbb's. So yes I am supremly confident in thier knowledge (those select few, perhaps I should have specified that more in my post-granted.) Well in my experience on these boards, I think many have blind faith in that they refuse to believe that any fbb takes roids, and for some reason think that steroids are cheating in BB'ing—there not. They are a given. So perhaps my experience was not the same as yours, but thats the consitent impression I get from the majority (not the everyone of course).

[greyfox]

Part 2:

Next quote:

I'm not in any form of denial about steroid use.  If you'd like, I'll message you with the names of FBBers who I consider to have gone too far in their use.  I know the signs, and I can assure you that people her like AlexG will tell you that I sometimes obsess about my favourites showing those signs.  Like The_Collector, I see no evidence whatsoever that Jo is using.  Now, she may be lying.  Then again, so might I.  For all anyone here knows, I might be a female ballerina, or a Space Shuttle crew member, or a brain surgeon.  The fact is, though, that I'm neither of those, and that any speculation that I might be is just that; speculation with no supporting evidence.  Just the same as you speculating about Johanna. 

I never said that anyone was specifically (key word) was in denial, i just said that by even talking about naturals being on the nation stage shows (that in my opinion) that was the case for some who jumps to there defense. In your case, obviosuly your not. But my freind, if you are not in denial, I would respectfully call you naive. The belief that any athlete on the national scene, competing in bb'ing show naturally is simply impossible from a biological/ medical standpoint. As I said in a previous post, women simply cannot produce the sheer amount of testosterone that is needed to grow muscles the size (and maintain that size with such an incredibly low bf.) of national level competitors with out steroids. Roids are basically synthesised test., and when injected it produces excellerated muscle growth when training for it. And yes, I am speculating, but the evidence (which to me is her body) IMHO is simply incontrevertable.

[greyfox]

Well I knew that comment will spark some fireworks here =), so I'll try and respond to each of you the best I can.

Biologically impossible?  You know what I used to think was biologically impossible?  A 14 year old girl being able to lift over 400 lbs.  A 7 year old kid having a ripped six pack of abs.

Yet each of those I just listed are real and have happened in a natural way.

I am no stranger to steroids being used in body building, there are tons of popular FBB's who I think have used steroids.  I'm not going to name names of the beloved ones because I have no evidence of it.  But I can name the most obvious ones like, Maria Calo and Nicole Bass.  Renne Tonney also springs to mind.

Johanna however, has no tell tale signs of steroid side effects such as manly voice, square jaw, and acne.  I'm sure she uses supplements and the like, but she's pretty much as big as Pauline Nordin and I'm pretty sure Pauline isn't a steroid abuser either.

Also, photos tends to make bodybuilders look bigger.  A good example of this was Siene Silva from American Gladiators.  In the photos by herself, she looked enormous, huge even.  Yet when you put her on a side by side comparison to Hulk Hogan it became quite obvious that she was as tiny as a fairy.

So unless you've met Johanna in person or have evidence that she's abused steroids, even though she shows none of the side effects, I don't think your targeting of JD is valid.

If you said Maria Calo or someone else, then you might be on to something, but Johanna?  I don't think so.

For the first part of your comment (the strength of a 14 y.o girl), I am speaking in terms of muscle size; I am not qualified to answer anything on feats of strength.

(6 pack abs of 7 year old girl), I assume your refering to gymnasts; with this group of incredibly gifted youngsters they are doing massive amounts of cardio based activity, ab work (strengthen core), and have impeccable diets. In combonation with relativly low body fats to begin with, geting a 6 pac of abs is very attainable considering how much work they put on. Again, no muscle size here. (and yes, I am well aware that gymnasts have defined, well built, muscular frames but they are not on a pro or national Fbb level)

(steroid signs of JD), steroid "tells" like acne or jaw distortions as you refered to are purley on a case to case basis. Another words a person can juice there entire life and not experience a single sign of steroid abuse because of genetic disposition to the drug or in some cases becuase of prevention substances used to fight the side effects (yes, I am aware that some side effects are not "reversable" or "fightable/ hideable"). For example, take someone like Kevin Leverone, this man at one time was a massive freak of muscle, and from all acounts (pics, videos, and personal stories from metting the man) I nor anyone that I have ever encountered has ever saw any tell tale signs of steroid use besides his immense frame.

(photo deception), yes it is very true that size is simply an illusion created on stage for the purposes of faceing fellow competitors. Agreed

(met Jd/ evidence), No I have never met JD, a local gym rat like me is not worthy of meeting a godis like her. As i explained earlier, just because she has no visible side effects, does not mean that she dosent take roids, hgh, or insulin; it merly means that she responds amazing well to the drugs. And I can assure you that I am in no way "targeting" JD because i have nothing but great respect for each and every Fbb'er. Even if say, a girl in my local gym, took roids, hgh, and insulin; that girl will proboblly never be able to compete on the nation stage because of genetic limitations, balance issues, or lack of reponse to the substacnes (to compete at THAT level).

[greyfox]

It's a biological imposibiliy, women produces about 1/13th the amount of testosterone that males produce.  A women with amazing genetics could work out for her entire life with a perfect diet and still not be able to compete at a pro/ national lvl. BB contest.  They simply cannot naturally produce enough test. to grow muscles of any signifigant size; let alone JD's development.

By no means do I mean to belittle anyone here, but the fact that we are even having this conversation really shows that some of you don't know much (or are in denial) about the "dark side" of bodybuilding.

As I said in my previous post, steroids arn't evil, but in the world of competitive BB'ing there not an advantage, there simply a given.

*Again, they have acctual natural bodybuilding contests for a reason; that reason is that men and women who don't take steriods cant compete with those who do (on the national or pro stage). Why else do you think they would have them?!?!?

If you dont believe me, and I am sure many of you don't, I challenge any of you to take a picture of JD to bodybuilding.com, musculardevelopment.com, ironmagazine.com, or any other reptuable body building site and ask the resident "guru" over there if he/she thinks if JD is natural (meaning takeing zero performance ehancing drugs like roids, hgh, or insulin).

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