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And yeah guys – you probably *have* read some of the stories he’s referring to. I can almost guarantee it.

It just wouldn’t occur to you those were even possibly what he was talking about.

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And once again Captain Mal posts his assertions and storms off without actually either backing up his argument with facts or letting anyone else make theirs.

He’s a good writer – but
A- in months of hearing this tirade (Over and Over) I’ve yet to hear him actually state which stories on Brawna he’s talking about.
B- amongst his tirades he’s made it quite clear that his objection is actually against any story which doesn’t recognizes the *exact* same age of consent he does, whether it’s from a different state or a different country
C- The Supreme Court has already ruled on this since Red Rose stories, that actually making (CGI) images is perfectly legal, overturning a federal law covering exactly that – so his assertion is based in fictional *imagery* being legal, but fictional text being illegal.

He’s a good writer, but if he want’s to have a hissy-fit because Crzyfcks from Brazil and has a different cultural context, fuck’em – I’ve had it up to here with his screaming fits. At least Crzyfck isn’t screaming about his moral superiority while writing fetish porn.

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I am continuously flabbergasted at the amazing number of people involved with kink that will happily assist and promote the censorship of someone else’s perfectly legal kink. As if a Constitution that protected the rights of people to do things you liked would be more than an eye-catching toilet paper.

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B Movie Studios presents – Invasion from Dimension Amazon
Me (Ruling Island Fortress with Sandra Bullocks permission): I’m, uh… I’m the money.
Ned Alleyn: Then you may remain so long as you remain silent.
Director (Chained in Island Fortress with Wordprocessor, masseuse, one actress of choice not Sandra Bullock): Marknew.
Special Effects: Steve the ZLM
Additional Screenwriters Chained in island fortress with wordprocessors and airhockey table:JPC900, Stewy, Greapos Captain Mal
Costume Design: Bill “If you didn’t get fetishes watching Star Trek I have failed you” Theiss

Commander of the Invaders: Angelina Jolie
Amazon Undercover Spy with remarkably sardonic sense of humor: Olivia Munn
Amazon spy with remarkably giggly sense of humor: Kristen Schaal
Gratuitously sexy Amazon Gynoid killing machine: Megan Fox

Scientist that defends humanity by enhancing all human women to amazon powerlevels while Setting up sequel: Sandra Bullock
Herself: Marilyn Monroe
Template for irresistible amazon human DNA: Julie Newmar
Evidence of ancient amazon/human breeding program: Rebecca Romjin

Somewhere, just because dammit: Lucy Lawless

… Oh you wanted a plot or something?

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Final Offtopic post.
ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL, et al. v.
FREE SPEECH COALITION et al

You know, it’s always possible I’m reading the wrong legal experts. So I looked the case itself up.

I’m sorry Mal, basic English reading of Paragraph (3) of the decision completely undermines your argument. Most interesting “Moreover, even if the market deterrence theory were persuasive, the argument cannot justify the CPPA because, here, there is no underlying crime at all.”

That’s the decision itself. Virtual Images represent no underlying crime. Given a court history where law clerk addenda made corporations ‘citizens’, I think it’s a safe assumption that if imagery doesn’t than words don’t either.

As the law stands, there would need to be an underlying crime for this to become actionable.

The ethical call? Well, ultimately that is Lingsters (to decide if a story otherwise suitable can be rejected based on character age) and yours (If you want your story in the same archive – Oh, yeah, I’d forgotten this actually *is* on topic.).

Personally I think wringing your hands over this ethical decision is on par with a writer worrying that his book will be stored in a library that also lets people check out “Lolita”, “Catcher in the Rye”, and “Mein Kampf”, and I think ceding this argument to you suppresses stories I dislike, but which are considerably less obscene than “Mein Kampf”, available in any competent library.

Publish. Or don’t.

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I missed your second post, but only have a few things I can really respond to now that I’ve seen it.

A) No, actually, I do *not* know what stories you are citing. Unless you are referring to McInvictus, in which case darn straight I disagree with your assessment.

B) I know of no legal authority that would characterize the Ashcroft case in the way you describe it. Among other thing it clearly delineated that a description of something that would be considered obscene if done in reality is not in and of itself obscene.

C) Please don’t take it on yourself to speak for our founding fathers. Anyone that thinks they were paragons of virtue or absolutists in their principles frankly has not studied them. They ranged from Preachers to scientists to, well, Ben Franklin. Trying to claim ‘they’ would agree with you *or* me is evidence of a failure of our defense of our opinions.

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Mal –
First of all, again you’ve neglected to actually cite a story or it’s actual offense. You’re the one who brought this up, You’re the one that keeps claiming you have these absolute standards, I really feel it’s your responsibility. We’ve gone back and forth at least three times now and for all the rhetoric you have yet to actually cite a story.

Secondly – are we going to go back and forth between the ethics and the legality or are you going to pick a premise for why you feel that way and stick to it? This is rapidly becoming of those flat-earth society arguments where you beat back nine arguments and the next post refers to none of them and goes on as if some entirely different premise was what the whole thing was about all along.

Thirdly – Again, your stating legal concepts without context. Yes, the Miller test cites “Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.” Now – go back and look at obscenity cases.

And realize how hard it is to get a court to say a work “taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.”. Yes – by the standards of first amendment law, Brawna stories are going to qualify as having literary and artistic value.

There may be some work in Brawna that doesn’t meet that standard – I don’t know, because we’re still talking in generality and principles. As long as we’re talking generalities and principles, the guiding principle is the first amendment, and yes, I’m going to advocate on the side of inclusion.

Lastly – At this point, either you’re having this argument here because you haven’t talked to Lingster, or because you have. If you haven’t, why not, and if you have – well, I’ve gotten the impression Lingster and I don’t exactly agree on a lot politically; if you’ve gone so far to the right that Lingster and I are in agreement, you might want to look over your premises.

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captr wrote:

“Cool your jets Mal, that’s not at all what I said.”
And I said that perhaps I was harsh. However, I think that perhaps my post above still had some merit.

For record keeping purposes, yes, your addenda was posted between when I started and finished mine. Darn straight I take my time picking my words given the subject matter – .

“What I *did* say is that the end point of that kind of absolutist line is a completely inability to write any genuine story about a culture whose taboos are drawn differently than our own.”

There is nothing wrong with the absolutist line. I don’t consider the types of stories we’re discussing to have any size, shape, or connection to understanding a “culture” that is merely “taboo” or drawn differently than our own. And if we were, I could care less about understanding another culture if the differences were that vast between us and their practices are the total opposite of my own. I know, I know.. I’m not a “cultured, sophisticated, elite”

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104282/smuggy-san-francisco-town

These stories are written in the framework of OUR culture and fall under OUR laws and mores. This is what I mean by your relativism. I don’t NEED to understand this material. I don’t NEED to give it latitude. This isn’t me dining with a bunch of people from a foreign nation and then practicing a festive ritual with them. Hell, and if that WAS the case and after dining with them they wanted me to practice a ritual with them that was against COMMON decency, I’d tell them to f’ off.

I’m not a cultural ethnographer from some damn National Geographic magazine.

See, I have a problem with snide comments about “cultured, sophisticated, elite”, when the entirety of my post was about the fact that you’re not even speaking for the whole of your own culture. And we’re not talking about them “damn ‘litist libruls ona the coasts” – Those “Cultured Sophisticated Elites” in have the age of consent at 18. It’s (In large part) middle America that trends towards 16 (or less, depending upon vagaries of specific law).

Federal Law *is* 18, but only applies ‘in transport across state lines‘ situations (Interestingly enough, the Uniform Code of Military Justice is 16, and requires proof of coercion.)

So you’re going off on a high horse about not being from National Geographic, and you leave me with nothing but suspicion you don’t know your own state law.

“(And indeed does so right here in the United States from state to state, here and now, from 14 for a male in Arkansas to 18 in other states. ) is legitimate.”

I’d check that law and read it VERY carefully.

“So, yeah Mal, unless you have a specific state whose law you intend to enforce across the other 49, plus every other country, then yeah, you *are* a relativist who is putting up with all the other states immoral behavior and has evidently never been bothered by it before now.”

Go check out the stories I’m speaking of. While, in my opinion a sexual FETISH story on a FETISH site (let’s not kid ourselves what Brawna is folks) is disturbing, the stories there depict characters much younger. I’m NOT a relativist. Those stories I’m speaking of are wrong. Finito, finished. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. It’s simply wrong for ADULTS to fantasize over someone that young. That’s a clearly defined line.

Umm – to be blunt Mal, you haven’t actually named any or clearly defined the line they crossed. McInvictus has stories about a teenager – and my internal censor bluntly assumes he *must* mean 19, because I’m sure he couldn’t mean something else (Hell, in my experience women aren’t even interesting till they’re 25.). But you keep making claims about being an absolutist, but haven’t actually given any absolute facts about which stories your speaking of or the line they crossed.

“Sorry – if you’ve never bothered to become informed and take action about the actual real age of consent across the real states of the real USA, I have some difficulty understanding your having a moralistic hissy fit about a fictional age of consent between characters that your original statement accuses of being of ‘questionable age’, whatever *that* means. “

There is FEDERAL LAW. I beg, beg, BEG you, to take those stories to a Federal Judge and ask him if the characters depicted in those stories, as others have argued here and on Brawna, have any valid artistic merit and then compare Federal law to all 50 states which possess obscenity laws based on the Federal statute and application. I ASSURE you, that they would find those stories troubling. They might even find mine troubling but they would probably differentiate it based on content (age of the characters). I’m just saying.

Again, I get frustrated for the simple reason that you can look this up and obviously haven’t – The Supreme Court already ruled on this almost a decade ago Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition – and even the *dissenters* Scalia and Rehnquist conceded things like a story were constitutionally protected.

And yeah – that statement brings it into focus for me. Here’s my objection to your ‘absolutist’ diatribe.

WHY is it it’s always the Culture Warriors that want to separate the constitutional protections from our Culture? I’m sorry, I’m a Veteran, I was shot at, and dammit, a belief in our Constitutional protections is part of why I joined. What *is* it about people trying to invoke moral authority that the Bill of Rights has no moral authority to them?

There are all sorts of countries without a Constitution or a Court system strong enough to protect it. If you hate ours, pick someplace you like!

Thank you, that’s *my* moralistic hissy fit. Moving On . . .

“Heck if you watched the first seasons of “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” characters had implied sex under 18 – conveniently covered by the “Fade to Black” Veil.” Implied and fade to black do not constitute “obscene” which is often defined by pornographic content.

As for my “moralistic hissy fit”, you may call it what you will but I’m willing to bet that the more of those types of stories that are put on Brawna, and given the technological powers of the modern age to sift through questionable data, that at some point, if not already, those people who insist on writing those scenarios are drawing an unwanted and questioning gaze upon all of us who have NO interest in those types of materials.

That is all I’m saying. As I said, call it what you will but it’s troubling. Why should we try and make excuses for it?

There is no excuse to have those types of stories associated with OUR community and/or ADULT centered interests. Unless something’s changed and I’m wrong in which I’ll be making a hasty exit.

None.

I can’t believe that I even have to have this discussion and why it’s troubling. Why should I even bother writing anymore after this?

I’m sorry, these last paragraphs have nothing but a vague fear of being caught less than six degrees of separation from stories you don’t like, and until you go to the trouble of listing something specific with specific objections and bringing it to Lingster’s attention there’s not much I can say about vague ‘troubling’ aspersions – I don’t have any actual power, and I’m not going to go dumpster diving for them. I might or might not be troubled by a specific story (Or indeed, might be troubled but recognize it as a good story.), but if you’re going to quit writing because your ‘troubled’ that out there somewhere your story may be filed in a folder with another story you find ‘troubling’, well, I love your writing but for god’s sake stop because it’s gonna happen and no amount of ‘absolutist’ moral dogma is going to stop that.

It seems to me that the end point of that path is archives that contain no erotica and nothing but obscenity because all the *good* writers have left rather than be ‘sullied’ by being put into a distasteful folder somewhere. But that’s your call.

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Cool your jets Mal, that’s not at all what I said.

What I *did* say is that the end point of that kind of absolutist line is a completely inability to write any genuine story about a culture whose taboos are drawn differently than our own. The realization that the advent of adulthood has varied over time and culture (And indeed does so right here in the United States from state to state, here and now, from 14 for a male in Arkansas to 18 in other states. ) is legitimate.

Your line in the sand, as drawn here in the United States without even referencing foreign or historic cultures, is a full presidential term wide. So, yeah Mal, unless you have a specific state whose law you intend to enforce across the other 49, plus every other country, then yeah, you *are* a relativist who is putting up with all the other states immoral behavior and has evidently never been bothered by it before now.

Sorry – if you’ve never bothered to become informed and take action about the actual real age of consent across the real states of the real USA, I have some difficulty understanding your having a moralistic hissy fit about a fictional age of consent between characters that your original statement accuses of being of ‘questionable age’, whatever *that* means.

Heck if you watched the first seasons of “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” characters had implied sex under 18 – conveniently covered by the “Fade to Black” Veil, but if we’re talking about a *principle* here that’s hardly sufficient, and I can name a dozen other shows, going back to 21 Jump Street, Hill Street Blues and 90210, nevermind Daytime Soap Opera’s.

That being the case – well, my objections to it are pretty clear; it had damn well better make sense in accordance to the plot because if it’s not a damn good story I’m not reading it. And the objection that such stories are rarely damn good stories is a valid one – throwing out a story on *that* basis doesn’t bother me in the least.

*Your* objection however, as near as I can read it is that you’ve drawn a line in the sand against fictional characters having fictional sex when not covered by a “Fade to Black” Veil, regardless of other writing considerations, because you have stringent non-relativist moral objections — which don’t apply to *actual* citizens of Arkansas.

I understand the emotional response – None of what I’ve written in the previous paragraphs should undercut the fact that I have the same response. But there’s a certain lack of coherence here.

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Urg. Perhaps understandable, but I hate trying to dictate that you can’t read a good story where the culture is different – You end up with the kind of historical revisionism that has versions of “Huckleberry Finn” with the N-word edited out. Yeah, it *should* be disgusting from our point of view, but you can’t see different cultures without actually seeing *other* cultures. God forbid people read “Clan of the Cave Bear”.

Admittedly that’s a knee-jerk reaction probably not apropos to an admittedly less serious genre – dammit, if only we could go back in time and expose Clemens to FMG fiction! An entire alternate history where the same man that wrote “Letter from the Earth” also wrote “The Too-Tall Wimmin of Chickisah County” and it’s sequel “Dammed by Mistake – the Waters of Chikasah County”. Then we’d see the genre get real respect!! Somebody get Steve the Z on that!

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