[Dr.Otto]

Doesn't matter, I don't think. They relaunch She-Hulk every metric decade, it tanks after a couple dozen issues and then vanishes into obscurity because it doesn't dare to do anything different than a million other comics just like it. You can get cheesecake in virtually any comic out there; Marvel doesn't understand the appeal of certain characters to certain fans, and She-Hulk is one that is repeatedly mistargeted.

[The Muffin man]

Doesn't matter, I don't think. They relaunch She-Hulk every metric decade, it tanks after a couple dozen issues and then vanishes into obscurity because it doesn't dare to do anything different than a million other comics just like it. You can get cheesecake in virtually any comic out there; Marvel doesn't understand the appeal of certain characters to certain fans, and She-Hulk is one that is repeatedly mistargeted.

Yeah, they really need to start catering to that 1% of comic fans rather than look at the big picture and try anything new that DOESN'T cater to a sickeningly small amount of people.

Is this what this forum has devolved to? Bitching because the world doesn't share your fetish?

[Dr.Otto]

Doesn't matter if it's 1%, 10%, or 50%; the fact of the matter is that virtually 0% are buying it, and it'll vanish within the next year. It's irrelevant to me because I stopped buying comics in 1990, but the point of my post is that She-Hulk doesn't do anything differently than a million other comics just like it. The run a decade and a half ago was a great concept; breaking the fourth wall, focusing on blatant comic satire. The newer releases just don't seem to know what they want to be, and in the end just comes out seeming more confused than anything else. It's a cyclic Ouroboros that pops up every so many years, and every time, the series goes through so many artist changes because nobody seems to be buying into the whole T&A aspect of it, so they have to find the 'right' artist to portray the 'right' T&A that'll draw the fans. But the point is that She-Hulk fans see her more as a character than just a roving titrack, and out of all I've read of the series in its incarnations over the last 20 years, the Byrne series of the early nineties was the best of the lot. She-Hulk is ineffably John Byrne's character, and she really shouldn't be in anyone else's hands than his…nobody else at Marvel gets it right.

You misunderstand; I don't necessarily think that Marvel should pander to the muscleheads (to coin a generic term), and my post history on various aspects of this will show that this exactly opposite to my own line of thinking. But the plain truth is that She-Hulk is constantly mistargeted in terms of writing and concept, and nobody seems to know exactly what she's supposed to be doing, or where the series is supposed to go. They need to put Byrne back on her title, or relegate her to supporting character status.

On the other hand, if they DID decide to have the series appeal to muscleheads, it'd have far more focus than it appears to have now. Better to have 1% of guaranteed sales rather than try to be everything to everyone and end up not doing any of it right. I mean, just who ARE they aiming this series at, anyhow?

[smitty]

Well said. 

I could not agree with you more. 

I'm about to head out and look for a copy of the new
issue, but it's pretty much out of curiosity more than
anything else.  During the last run, I started out buying
the book because I wanted to see it survive.  But until
Paul Pelletier came on as artist, it gave me no reason to
continue buying it.

I don't want to sound remarkably simple, but the
character's name is She HULK.  The creative team behind
the title treats it like it should be called Big Green Lawyer.
If they choose to continually ignore the character's "Hulk"
aspect, well, then I don't have to buy it, either.

You can't be all things to all people.

smitty

[David C. Matthews]

I haven't read Vol. 4 #1 yet, so my thoughts are about the latest series in general…

This strikes me as being a better concept for a TV series than a comics series. As smitty noted, the title is "She-HULK", and for a comic book, that means you gotta have the title character in action.

But a TV series could get away with fewer appearances by the "main character"… it's practically a staple of TV adaptations of comics. Look at the George Reeves Adventures of Superman series (which, as it happens, I'm rewatching on DVD); look at the Bill Bixby/Lou Ferrigno Incredible Hulk, the Lynda Carter Wonder Woman series. Generally, the episodes will give more "story time" to the title charcter's alter-ego (Clark Kent, Bruce David Banner, Diana Prince), with the super persona appearing once before the first-half climax, and again at the main climax to stop the evil plot, rescue the innocents and capture the bad guys. (Hell, you could practically set your watch by when Bill Bixby transforms into Big Lou.)

And that's the feeling I got while I was reading the first few Dan Slott issues of She-Hulk: "What a great TV show this would make." Such a TV series would put most of its focus on Jennifer Walters in much the same way Slott has. (This would have practical considerations as well, indeed it'd probably be driven almost entirely by practicality: imagine the special-effects budget you'd need to convincingly portray a 7+ foot tall green giantess on TV – you'd need either CGI, the physical-effects methods used by Peter Jackson to portray the hobbits in the Lord of the Rings movies, maybe a combination of both with other methods. Naturally, you'd want to limit the time a special-effects character spends on screen to keep from blowing your budget.)

Anyway, that's what I'm thinking. Next week I'm going to try to score a copy of v.4 #1 myself.

[AlexG]

Doesn't matter if it's 1%, 10%, or 50%; the fact of the matter is that virtually 0% are buying it, and it'll vanish within the next year. It's irrelevant to me because I stopped buying comics in 1990, but the point of my post is that She-Hulk doesn't do anything differently than a million other comics just like it. The run a decade and a half ago was a great concept; breaking the fourth wall, focusing on blatant comic satire. The newer releases just don't seem to know what they want to be, and in the end just comes out seeming more confused than anything else. It's a cyclic Ouroboros that pops up every so many years, and every time, the series goes through so many artist changes because nobody seems to be buying into the whole T&A aspect of it, so they have to find the 'right' artist to portray the 'right' T&A that'll draw the fans. But the point is that She-Hulk fans see her more as a character than just a roving titrack, and out of all I've read of the series in its incarnations over the last 20 years, the Byrne series of the early nineties was the best of the lot. She-Hulk is ineffably John Byrne's character, and she really shouldn't be in anyone else's hands than his…nobody else at Marvel gets it right.

You misunderstand; I don't necessarily think that Marvel should pander to the muscleheads (to coin a generic term), and my post history on various aspects of this will show that this exactly opposite to my own line of thinking. But the plain truth is that She-Hulk is constantly mistargeted in terms of writing and concept, and nobody seems to know exactly what she's supposed to be doing, or where the series is supposed to go. They need to put Byrne back on her title, or relegate her to supporting character status.

On the other hand, if they DID decide to have the series appeal to muscleheads, it'd have far more focus than it appears to have now. Better to have 1% of guaranteed sales rather than try to be everything to everyone and end up not doing any of it right. I mean, just who ARE they aiming this series at, anyhow?

Such cynicism, but unfortunately you're right.  The truth is that she (and her alt-counterpart, but non-Jen Walter fan-fiction characters) have been far better treated with stories of depth and careful consideration by a number of the fan-fiction authors (i.e. notably Terry19d) on-line then she's been historically handled (with some rare exceptions, to be certain) by the publisher, Marvel Comics.

The central problem is that they see her (and all of the other superheroic characters in their stable) as a merely a commodity for merchandising, while we see her (and them) as individual personalities, even if they are only fictional in nature.  When you plug that factor into the equation its not surprising to see the wide deviation in the two versions of fictional materials available for review.

“I like a good story well told. That is the reason I am sometimes forced to tell them myself.”
~ Mark Twain / Samuel Clemens (1907)

[David C. Matthews]

The central problem is that they see her (and all of the other superheroic characters in their stable) as a merely a commodity for merchandising

It's instructive to remember why She-Hulk was created in the first place: to forestall the copy-cat characters Marvel feared would be created in the wake of the success of the Incredible Hulk TV series.

So it's small wonder she gets short shrift from her publishers.

[The Muffin man]

Well said. 

I could not agree with you more. 

I'm about to head out and look for a copy of the new
issue, but it's pretty much out of curiosity more than
anything else.  During the last run, I started out buying
the book because I wanted to see it survive.  But until
Paul Pelletier came on as artist, it gave me no reason to
continue buying it.

I don't want to sound remarkably simple, but the
character's name is She HULK.  The creative team behind
the title treats it like it should be called Big Green Lawyer.
If they choose to continually ignore the character's "Hulk"
aspect, well, then I don't have to buy it, either.

You can't be all things to all people.

smitty

I know what you mean. What's with this bullshit of dealing with the alter-ego? I mean, how many times do you see Bruce Wayne or Peter Parker?

Oh wait….

Also: you all bitch about the direction it's going. Oddly enough it's going in a new direction than it's ever gone in. And…Gasp. It got picked up again months after the final issue. Not years. Maybe, I dunno, you're all wrong and have no clue what you're talking about?

Of course if we all took advice from Chris, I'm sure we'd get a comic once a year with the problem he's, oddly enough, quite vocal about(unsure what genre they want or what kind of 'fanservice' fans they want to draw in).

And I still think this stems on an almost subconcious fear of all of you that if you like Jen Walters better than She-Hulk, it means you can't like muscle girls. You've become the guy's who insult you for your taste in muscular women. Only this time, you're adverse to NORMAL women. "Ew. She's not 6 feet tall and doesn't have muscles the size of my car. That's just creepy."

Some of my favorite characters are not only not that buff, but also not women. It's ok to like her non-muscular alter ego better than her. Besides, you're all forgetting She-Hulk has grown into her own character, but in essence is still just "Jen with muscle".

[gimme size]

She-Hulk wasn't "picked up" again months after the last series — the relaunch had been planned before the last run ended.  The book was getting good reviews but lackluster sales, so the idea was to give it more attention with a new #1.  Titles that "reboot" with a #1 typically sell twice as much (or more) than an average issue in a run.  It's part of the industry business model.  Marvel in particular is infamous for doing it.  Because they know it generates more money, at least at the start.  Retailers order more of any issue #1 and slowly scale back as the series goes on.  Those are the facts.  You might want to know what you're talking about before accusing others of not knowing what THEY'RE talking about.

I won't even get into the stupidity of the "subconscious fears" allegation or the Bruce Wayne/Peter Parker analogies, since they're so silly they're not worth arguing.

[smitty]

Muffin guy, why all the bitterness, the sarcasm?

We're just sharing opinions here.  You like the book, I don't. 
Other people like the book; other people don't.

Personally, I never said anything about the character.  My almost
exclusive problem is with the artist, who makes the title character
appear more bloated than muscular.  As far as I'm concerned, Bobillo's
presence renders the "Jen with muscle" comment almost meaningless.

Just wondering how well the Hulk would sell if he spent most of
every issue as Bruce Banner? How about a six-issue arc of Superman
that dealt mainly with Clark Kent and journalism?

And now, to quote George Costanza, "Flame on!"

smitty

[Author]

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